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Through the Looking Glass OoC topic for Dark Mirror

#276 User is offline   Ragnar0k 

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 08:34 PM

Writing up the last bit right now. All I really need is some dialogue from Two-Jacks and to wrap up editing this last scene.

'Tis a long post and I tried to include as many characters as possible for extra incentive to read the whole thing, but I imagine it will be a lot for one sitting. So should I write up some cliff notes for this discussion thread as soon as I'm done?

I'm already going to have to do that for some villains I'm throwing in.
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#277 User is offline   adam_0 

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 10:02 PM

QUOTE (BreadWorldMercy453 @ Jan 19 2010, 03:55 PM)
Adam- Was it intentional that you left in "man" and later "him" in descriptions of Apis? It is amusing, reminds me of that House Attis servant who's worked for Thuria since he was a man girl..


Erm, editing error... it will be fixed. Odd I didn't catch it. Whoop.
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#278 User is offline   Ragnar0k 

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 01:00 AM

And now I must explain my monster post in detail for everyone without a week to read it. Namely everyone.

Spoilers ahead, solid spoilers all around.

The post takes place across three sections, from three points of view. The first and longest is from Seralcard's perspective. It happens first, because at the end of it Seralcard jumps back in time and shows up in the last section... which happens earlier that same day. I know that could get confusing but it's cool if you think about it, I promise.

Anyway, second section is from a villain's point of view. Namely Jacob. There I intro the five members of the "Hand" (I have a habit of naming groups just because) and I give a brief description of their powers. This part explains how the events of the first section could come to pass. It also brings Devlin's death and the disappearance of the Daemons to the attention of the alternates, though they draw the wrong conclusions from the clues they have and blame it all on Aremis.

The last section is from Wizard's pov, because I wanted to preserve the element of surprise for Seral showing up and because it seemed better for him to speak with Wizard than Talos. In that one you see Seralcard with new gear and masquerading as a bad guy. That might require some explaining because I don't know if it's easy to "get it" right away. Every time you see Seralcard in a canon timeline you can assume he's already been through that situation a few dozen times before. Kind of like the movie Groundhog Day (a similarity a friend pointed out to me when discussing the story). For the post Seralcard pretends to be a bad guy to provoke the heroes to ask the right questions and act in a way that will save their lives.

In keeping with the groundhog day theme Seral is an enchanter and inventor of mystical items (which got him in this mess in the first place) so he's been taking the equipment he's come across and modifying it for his own use.

He's also been receiving training from various characters in multiple fields to improve his chances of survival/success. He's not going to be able to get through this without the help of your characters.

**

Now here's a bio for the four new villains I introduced, hopefully this makes it easier to keep them straight if you want to use them*:

Ral
Male
Lightning Mage
Middle aged

He has blonde hair with hints of gray. He was a mage of Pynx in alt-cythera but he betrayed his fellows and sided with alt-wizard. He is powerful and skilled but a bit cocky and overconfident.

Krys
Female
Telepath - Can "cast" illusions and read/control the minds of others.
Late teens

Small and slim. When she was too young to remember Wizard murdered her parents after realizing the kind of psychic potential she had. He "raised" her as his own, as he did other gifted individuals, and trained her. Unlike most of her adopted siblings she survived and excelled. She remains fiercely loyal to her "father".

Kain
Male
Pyrokinetic - Can create fire from thin air and cause inanimate things to burst into flames.
Mid-Twenties

A powerfully built man with dark hair and a well groomed beard. Kain killed his family with this power he couldn't control when he was very young. Wizard took a special interest in him. Taught him to control his powers. And showed the boy the beauty of being a sadistic psychopath. Chip off the ol' block. Kain is loyal to Wizard but is fond of Selax like a favorite uncle.

Scry
Female
Blademaster/ senses her surroundings and sees several seconds into the future
Mid-Twenties

Blind with long black hair and a red scarf covering her eyes. She was once a hero like Raperian fighting against Wizard to free the alternate Cythera. She wasn't as skilled as the ranger at staying hidden though. Her family was found and killed by Kain. Soon after she fought Selax and lost both eyes to an attack. Wizard then realized her hidden ability to see the future and awakened it within her, but just to be cruel he then twisted her mind and made her the slave of the man who killed her family, Kain.

*these guys are meant to be around for a bit so obviously they shouldn't be killed off right away. If we could I'd like to avoid Scry specifically being beaten in actual combat for now.

If anyone has any other questions just PM me or ask me right here. I'm sure I'm missing some things but it's late now and they don't come to mind.

This post has been edited by Ragnar0k: 20 January 2010 - 02:41 AM

"The Jim maneuver!"
- Jason Peck, R.I.P
"You know what? That milk was good. I don't care if that horse was on steroids."
- Melo, after drinking a glass of Nesquick.
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#279 User is offline   Avatara 

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 03:21 AM

I'm sure you've braced for the hailstorm of comments coming from everyone with their own interpretation, I'll keep mine simple.

There's two things that bother me personally, especially in the 'present' section.

1. The giant swarm of zombie ruffians invading the city out of thin air. I have a longstanding gripe against somewhat meaningless battles between large numbers of characters nobody really cares about (people might remember my comments in previous stories when we have a giant army of the undead or ruffians or whatever assault the group). In this case, there's a giant rush on the judge's castle (which is actually occupied by alt-Wizard) in the daylight, no less (wouldn't they be spotted from a fair distance?), by a bunch of nameless ruffians whose only purpose is to die. The real focus with the Two-Tailed Rat wasn't the ruffians, it was that fire guy burning down the inn, and it doesn't look like any heroes actually cares about the ruffian assault on the judge's castle because they're all doing their own thing (which is odd in itself). Not to mention, it begs the question on where all these people came from - there's obviously more there than the largest city's population.

The Hand alone (with maybe a half-dozen to dozen ruffian meatshields) should probably be enough to handle Cademia and its heroes - especially given how they were set up - and especially since the "heroes" are practically fighting each other. As a bonus, we actually know a bit about who the attackers are, and so you get a more interesting conflict.

2. The timing. Most characters are somewhere in the morning of day eight, a few in the afternoon. Wizard's group arrived at pretty much the proper time given their journey length. But the rest of it feels kind of rushed. There's not a whole lot of time for pretty much anybody to make a move. If we go with an assault in the middle of the night on day 8, that's still pretty quick, but at least some people have a chance to do stuff. But you post ended with an attack in the middle of the day, which leaves like two hours for a lot to happen.

As an example (with minor spoilers about the IKEA storyline) - Avatara still has to convince Iannah he should attend the meeting with Selax, find some way to separate her from the rest of the assassins, and set a trap for alt-Selax, and actually bait and encounter Selax to the trap location. All of that could feasibly happen during the course of day 8 (a little rushed but still workable), but not by the afternoon. If a giant ruffian army begins attacking midday, then everybody is just going to abandon the city.

Likewise, I'm not sure that Wizard's crew is going to have time to decipher Seralcard's warning if suddenly there's a giant attack on the city. They'll rush in and get killed.

As an aside: I don't recommend using time travel to reset anything that actually happens in the story posted by other people. It would kind of cheapen the effect of some of the stuff that's coming if Seralcard can always just jump back in time and attempt to alter the past.

"Sometimes I get confused whether I'm posting on ATT or in the War Room. But then I remind myself: If it's moderators acting scatter-brained and foolish, then it's the War Room*.

*Unless it's Avatara, of course."
-- From the memoirs of Sundered Angel

#280 User is offline   Two Jacks 

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 03:49 AM

I sent a Pm but some other things:

Firecat is not in Cademia so his presense couldn't be 'felt'. Spoiler: He's actually in Alt-Cythera.

Forlong was kidnapped and tortured by Andru on day seven (I think) and as far as I know still tied up at an inn.

Was Yomu really at the end in the last part of the post? They didn't run into him (or Kat, Andru, Shanadar) when they went upstairs.


Edit: whoops forgot the spoiler tags!

This post has been edited by Two Jacks: 20 January 2010 - 03:49 AM


#281 User is offline   Ragnar0k 

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 04:59 AM

Valid points all. If there's a problem I don't mind editing if you guys can wait a day or two for me to get it done, but first I'll try to clear up what seem to be a few big misunderstandings:

On the number of Ruffians: The Ruffian "horde" is not a lord of the rings style army, not even a force in the triple digits I imagined. I never specified how many ruffians there would be because I don't know how many guards there should be across the city. The ruffian attack is a diversion, as I tried to say several times in the post. It's not meant to succeed. In fact it could "fail" horribly and still be a success. It was only meant to distract the guards and mages. I'm basically using a bunch of unimportant characters to explain why all the other unimportant characters in the city are otherwise occupied. That's why there were only dead ruffians during the action in Seralcard's section.

So how many ruffians are there, all told? I don't know, exactly how many people are defending Cademia everyday? *shrug* It doesn't matter. As long as the guards and castle are occupied the job of the ruffians plot-wise is over. You never have to fight them because there are bigger problems to choose from. If someone wants to fight ruffians though, have at.

On population: If we go by game canon there are, what, a dozen named characters in all of Cademia? Less? That's barely enough for a small village, let alone a city with castle included. I've been assuming that "we" were assuming the population of Cythera was at least the size of a small kingdom. At least enough to warrant the presence of cities and a king. If I'm wrong let me know.

On "why the heck aren't the heroes helping out at the castle?!": That's because the five were already hunting them down and had killed/seriously injured several. The heroes were cut off from the castle and the guards were too busy with ruffians to notice our guys needed help. That was the whole point of the ruffian attack. I didn't mean for it to seem like the heroes were just hanging around, and if it seems that way then I wrote it poorly. I can list the heroes and what was up with them though:

Shanadar - dead
Yomu- in danger most of the time and assumed dead.
Talos- injured too badly to leave the last spot he defended with Katerei.
Katerei - protecting Talos out of feelings of obligation/guilt after he saved he life.
Avatara and Alt Kat - With the bad guys, fought Selax, got captured
Wizard and Selax - trying to figure out who was alive, who was dead, and who was killing them all off. At the end when Wizard was attacked I didn't specifically say by whom because it didn't seem necessary and how would Selax know these guys by name, but it was Jacob and Krys with a handful of ruffians.
Andru - I was so focused on writing that I didn't read Adam's post until I was finished. Andru can be considered to have been helping Wizard or to have died valiantly at some point. It's an alternate timeline which doesn't count so it's entirely up to you Adam, sorry about that.

Beyond what's listed above what the characters did was outlined in the post.

On "where the heck did these guys come from": I thought a detailed explanation would kill some suspense and add more writing to an already lengthy post, but here it is. I assumed there were more ruffians, brigands, and general bad people in Alt Cythera than there were in reg Cyth. I then assumed that the ruffians in cythera could be coerced or persuaded to work for Wizard. Those together, or either alone, should have been enough people to match the number of guards in Cademia. I thought. Also, the build up of this force would have been happening over the course of days, they are just being used earlier than they were supposed to be. And that's because Seralcard messed with the time-space continuum. Bad assassin, no treat for you.

On "how did they sneak up to the city": Hilariously easily? I mean, what with the powerful psychic villains running around already in Cademia I figured using their abilities on the sentries to mask the approach of the ruffians coming out of the trees would not have been hard. But when we get into that we have to talk about population again. If there aren't more than a hundred people in Cademia hiding a force a bit smaller than that using illusions isn't a problem. If we're talking about a lot more people things get more complicated, but I didn't really think there were more than that.

We also need to talk about terrain. I don't know what it's like. If you look at my posts I've assumed a few things: Cademia is by the shore. It is lower than the surrounding area. There are hills nearby. There is a dense forest pretty close. Most castles are built on the high ground, or at least the highest point that can hold them in the area they reside. Also, most of the time land is cleared and the grass is cut low for a long ways around. But those are precautions taken to detect invading armies, and how many hundreds of years has it been since real war came to any place in Cythera. These are the things I considered and when I accounted for all of them I didn't see an issue.

Again, if I am mistaken just lemme know how.

On timing: I meant for the time to be closer to five than noon, but I wasn't sure about listing the time of day as "Evening", that's a one word edit if you want me to go there. Since no one has actually posted what they did at day 8 (didn't everyone last post on day 7 and we were all going to agree the rest of the day was very boring the end?) I thought the hours from when they woke up to a little after five was a pretty good chunk of time. The only other group I've obligated with some sort of schedule is SKY, and I'm basically saying that whatever else they do that day they were at the Two Tailed Rat at least briefly at some point in the afternoon. SKY's last post ended there didn't it?

On "What would Wizard do?": I did what I felt I could to point the Wizard, Selax, Talos, Silver group in the write direction. The rest is up to the other writers or, in the worst case, myself again. Seralcard gave the information to Wizard because he knew Wizard was clever enough to figure out something wasn't right and then act on that instead of rushing to death. Selax too is a character that I believe is very intelligent and is one of the reasons that this group was contacted that way and not SKY.

On "the trap Selax plan falling apart because barbarians are at the gates": Iannah would be aware of the sizable attack force that her people were mounting. She might have been surprised by the timing but her reaction to it falls squarely on the shoulders of Avatara or iKaterei. I couldn't say what she would do. I would however expect her to know that Selax was still on his way and be somehow informed of the situation. I thought they would be hiding out around the Old Houses, that's the whole reason I left the area untouched by the fighting in my post. During the ruffian attack one of the heroes might have had a problem with sitting around in relative safety with Iannah while the city went up in flames. I didn't think Avatara would care as long as he got his shot at Selax.

On this:
QUOTE
As an aside: I don't recommend using time travel to reset anything that actually happens in the story posted by other people. It would kind of cheapen the effect of some of the stuff that's coming if Seralcard can always just jump back in time and attempt to alter the past.


I would never, EVER, do something like that and would be angry/annoyed if someone else did. I think that at least a few of you thought I was the kind of jerk who would do it though. I'll clear this up right now. In any post one of you writes, that is what happened in the timeline. That's it, period. As far as Seralcard is concerned any time altering he wanted to do already happened and he was never able to change whatever it is that you wrote. The end.

And now a shout out to Two Jacks.

Yomu never actually came back to the tavern, that was Seralcard in disguise setting up a trap for Wizard and Co. Since he knew that Yomu had already been there he took advantage of that. It was also a way for the group to be aware of SKY and that they should be somewhere nearby.

My bad about Forlong. I'm going to edit that very soon. I mentioned earlier that I didn't stop to read Adam's post and that was because I wanted to finish mine before I went to sleep, I've been writing every time I sat down with the computer. This was my mistake I will make the edit and go back to read what I missed.

Edit: Removed mention of sensing Firecat, fixed the bit about Forlong, replying to PM.


I'm so used to writing large complex plots and talking about all the little details that sometimes I get wrapped up in it and just assume everyone knows just as much about what's going as I do. One of the problems is that you guys weren't among the people I discussed this post with. In any case is this info helpful or are chunks of the post simply unsalvageable? It took crazy long to write but fixing it is better than you hating me for ruining the story, lol.

This post has been edited by Ragnar0k: 20 January 2010 - 01:02 PM

"The Jim maneuver!"
- Jason Peck, R.I.P
"You know what? That milk was good. I don't care if that horse was on steroids."
- Melo, after drinking a glass of Nesquick.
A message for Gray Shirt Ninja: RAAAAAAARRRGGH!

#282 User is offline   Avatara 

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 11:35 AM

I won't have the time for a full reply until later today. To be clear, the only part that annoyed me was the very last paragraph.

QUOTE (Ragnar0k @ Jan 20 2010, 01:59 AM)
I would never, EVER, do something like that and would be angry/annoyed if someone else did. I think that at least a few of you thought I was the kind of jerk who would do it though. I'll clear this up right now. In any post one of you writes, that is what happened in the timeline. That's it, period. As far as Seralcard is concerned any time altering he wanted to do already happened and he was never able to change whatever it is that you wrote. The end.

I wasn't assuming you would. I merely brought it up because if things go badly and someone dies, how can you explain Seralcard not jumping back in time - from the story perspective? Is there some kind of limitation or whatever that hinders his jumping?
"Sometimes I get confused whether I'm posting on ATT or in the War Room. But then I remind myself: If it's moderators acting scatter-brained and foolish, then it's the War Room*.

*Unless it's Avatara, of course."
-- From the memoirs of Sundered Angel

#283 User is offline   Ragnar0k 

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 12:41 PM

I'm sorry about how that came off. It was pretty late and I was actually offended. Now that I've had some sleep I realize it was a valid concern and not something you meant to be insulting but at 5am I didn't make the distinction. Again, my apologies.

- The answer to your question was in there though, buried under a lot of unnecessary indignation, I will be clearer now. The limit to Seralcard's jumping (at this moment, as hinted to in the post) is that he can only jump back to the last place he randomly jumped to. In the case of the post that was Day 8 in the morning. So if he stays in the normal timeline with everyone else until, say, day 15 he has two time travel options: 1) He can go back to the morning of Day 8 (the last place he randomly went) and have to relive the next week exactly as he did before to fix one thing on day 15. 2) He can let Nightmare send him to a random time/place. Those are his choices right now.

- Now I'm not trying to explain Seralcard not jumping back in time. I'm saying that if something bad happens he does jump back to try and fix it. The problem he faces then is that something much worse would happen because he interfered. Maybe many more people die. Maybe the world ends. What specifically happens does not matter because I'm never going to bother writing about it. The take away message though is that Seralcard would fail to change anything you guys write, no matter what it is, and that he will give up on it rather than making it worse.

Moral of the story- anything you write is set in stone. You can assume, if you like, that Seralcard tried to fix it but failed and it happened anyway.

For example. If you have Selax kill Avatara, and both Katereis die, and Two-Jacks tires of Yomu and has him killed too Seralcard would go back, try to stop it, and fail or fail and make things worse until eventually he just lets it happen and surrenders to fate. Maybe he learns a valuable life lesson along the way. If you want me to I can have him mention doing that after bad things happen. I'm not going to write posts for it though. I'd never stop writing if I had to chronicle all the times he screws everything up.

I imagine one of your concerns was plot-holes. "If he can do this how do you explain why sometimes he doesn't?" Whenever something like time-travel or any other big power is thrown into a story plot-holes threaten to tear the logic apart at the seams. It's a concern I would have if someone else was writing the time-traveler. I needed Seralcard's "ability" to eventually be functional though instead of totally random. I've given this plenty of thought and believe I have the bases covered.

Does that set your mind at ease at all?

About the issue of timing we were discussing before: I realized that we could stretch it a bit further if my group stayed on the first floor of the tavern, questioned people, and enjoyed a meal after their long trip, instead of leaving Selax to do the questioning and heading upstairs immediately. If I remove the part about Apis mentioning Yomu and put it in after the guys finish eating and talking then the ruffian distraction could start around six or seven while the sun is well on its way down*. How soon the sun sets is also a question of the season and I don't know what it is in Cythera. It gets pretty dark over here around that time though.

*This would also help with the illusions hiding the ruffians, since the sun would be at their backs and in the eyes of any guardsmen watching the road. That information is really just for our own piece of mind though since I wasn't intending to actually write those details in the post.

This post has been edited by Ragnar0k: 20 January 2010 - 02:48 PM

"The Jim maneuver!"
- Jason Peck, R.I.P
"You know what? That milk was good. I don't care if that horse was on steroids."
- Melo, after drinking a glass of Nesquick.
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#284 User is offline   Avatara 

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 03:59 PM

I was going to try and address your remarks over lunch, but the ten minute break I had wasn't nearly sufficient. I'll just touch on the biggest issue for now (not with your post in particular, but a general reaction I've seen) because in this case its something that comes up a lot.

Anger and Hatred
QUOTE (Ragnar0k @ Jan 20 2010, 01:59 AM)
I'm sorry about how that came off. It was pretty late and I was actually offended. Now that I've had some sleep I realize it was a valid concern and not something you meant to be insulting but at 5am I didn't make the distinction. Again, my apologies.


I wasn't trying to offend you (though you know that now). My wording could've been better, but I wanted to get off a quick post early to start a discussion rather than sitting for a day and having Selax explode. I initially tried to leave a simple list, then I decided I probably should clarify what I was getting at and in the process probably muddled my point. The last part was literally an "oh, by the way, how do you explain this?" before I went to bed.

I'll step back and speak to a more general audience for a moment. Probably 99% of the posts in the story (including mine) have sparked some kind of response that requires an edit (sometimes its as simple as some typing errors, sometimes its not). I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, as it seems to improve the overall coherency (less inconsistencies between posts), and in some cases, I've seen a few authors dramatically improve their writing.

A touchy topic is always writing about other people's characters. It is very difficult to write someone else's character they way they would envision it and it generally requires a lot of time and practice getting comfortable with someone else's viewpoint. So whenever someone else uses your character, its an understandable reaction to go "well, I wouldn't have written it that way..."

However, keep in mind these are supposed to be team stories. It would be pretty boring if everybody only stuck to their character in the interest of only having perfect interactions. Don't believe me? Go read some of the stories in the archives that do just that. There's a generic group, maybe some random people will have a single line to pretend they're still being useful, and then a giant focus on a bunch of individuals. Not very interesting.

The challenge then becomes balancing using other characters with getting everything perfect. Personally, I used to be pretty picky in the past, so I know where most of you are coming from. But I started to find that by doing so, other people would start avoiding other characters for fear of criticism. So in the past couple of years I've tried to make a big effort to be more lenient. Was Avatara's every word, nuance, or movement exactly the way I would have written them? No, but there weren't any serious issues either. In other words, it was close enough.

If someone makes a big mistake (as a random example, say they mix up the gender of Forlong), then sure, go ahead and point it out [civilly]. But aside from that, ask yourself if it really is a big enough deal or if the slightly-imperfect rendition of your character is "close enough." (In this case, nobody really cares if we call Forlong a girl, because Mack doesn't pay serious attention to the story. tongue.gif)

I got slightly off-topic, but what I meant to get at was - please don't take it personally if people are critiquing your post. (I'm talking to everyone here, because this happens a lot.) Instead, think of it a sign that people actually care about the story and want your post to work out. I didn't hear any calls for "omg, we should print that on paper and burn it in protest" - it was mostly "well, if this section had been a little different..." or along those lines.

On the flip side, the rest of us should try to be constructive with any criticism. The goal should be to make more people have fun and write better stories, not to scare everyone away because Katerei* demands perfection.

To be continued...

Now that it took me thirty minutes to write that, I fear I'm going to be replying to this topic all night...

*Sorry, my contract says I have to pick on you when you're not around, even if you had nothing to do with it.
"Sometimes I get confused whether I'm posting on ATT or in the War Room. But then I remind myself: If it's moderators acting scatter-brained and foolish, then it's the War Room*.

*Unless it's Avatara, of course."
-- From the memoirs of Sundered Angel

#285 User is offline   iKaterei 

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 09:12 PM

I'm going to do away with spoiler tags because all this black is seriously messing with my eyes.

Villains: At first I was hesitant about all these villains coming out of nowhere because narrative-wise, they're so segregated from everything else that's happened, especially entering so late in the story. At this point they have no history with anyone other than Saltwax Inc (see, if you came on IRC more you'd know who I'm talking about wink.gif) and your other villains. It's hard to figure out where they stand in relation to anyone else (is there any tension within the Hand? Do Kain and Krys know anyone outside their little circle, given that Wizard has kept them secluded?)

I don't think it will matter as they get more 'screen time' to be developed though. This ties in with what Avatara said about using each other's characters; I feel like the web of connections between characters that's building has been a really positive trend in the TS (Forlong must know half the town by now despite his creator abandoning him) and I'd hope the Hand can be drawn into it. Ral and Scry in particular seem to have potential due to their pasts.

Ruffians: Maybe the ruffians are all an illusion, instead of being hidden by one. Krys is the only one I don't recall having a direct appearance in the opening battle scene, so it could be something she's in charge of. The issue there is the illusion would have to be pretty realistic and complex for the guards not to figure it out in all of two minutes – maybe it's a joint effort with alt-Wizard?

It doesn't really avoid the issue of a meaningless battle, but it does explain where they all came from, how they weren't spotted entering the city and why they're concentrated at the castle.

Population: I'd hazard a guess that Cademia has at least a few hundred people.

Old houses: Iannah and co. relocated to the ghetto on Day 7 so Aremis couldn't find them. It's not unreasonable that they would have moved back to the old houses though, considering the ghetto has gone up in flames.

QUOTE (Avatara @ Jan 20 2010, 12:59 PM)
Probably 99% of the posts in the story (including mine) have sparked some kind of response that requires an edit (sometimes its as simple as some typing errors, sometimes its not). I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, as it seems to improve the overall coherency (less inconsistencies between posts), and in some cases, I've seen a few authors dramatically improve their writing.


One of the few things that I got out of my creative writing class was the value of editing. I just heard the other day that the creative writing grad students at my university have a month, just a month, to write a novel; which presumably means they have to spend the next two months of the semester editing it. I'm pretty sure most of our posts are nowhere near a 2:1 editing ratio and even then I'd agree it's worthwhile for everyone.

QUOTE
A touchy topic is always writing about other people's characters. It is very difficult to write someone else's character they way they would envision it and it generally requires a lot of time and practice getting comfortable with someone else's viewpoint.


On this note, I've noticed a trend where people go out of their way to say they're willing to edit a post if they've mishandled a character. I understand why, having said so myself, but it would be nice if it was redundant and we could just assume other people are flexible. (With the exception of Adam, we've all been writing together long enough to forego the formalities. tongue.gif) Editing after getting feedback from the character's creator is a good way to learn about the character for future use, and often more practical on the internet, since it's harder to just sit down with someone, share notes and have a discussion before writing.

Of course, this mainly applies to minor things like speech, gestures, reactions. Massively retconning a post is overwhelming, and that's why if you want to use another character in a significant way but think it might be a problem, you should use Google Wave to collaborate with the other person instead of getting scared off. wink.gif

QUOTE
*Sorry, my contract says I have to pick on you when you're not around, even if you had nothing to do with it.


HOMG I HAVE CHARACTERS COMING OUT MY EARS AND YOU MANAGED TO GET THE SHOE COLOUR WRONG OF JUST ONE OF THEM WRONG HOW DARE YOU mad.gif

Actually, it's no different than normal, you pick on me even when I am around.

#286 User is offline   BreadWorldMercy453 

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 09:33 PM

QUOTE (iKaterei @ Jan 20 2010, 09:12 PM)
I'm going to do away with spoiler tags because all this black is seriously messing with my eyes.

Thank you! ^_^ Huge black boxes just aren't fun to read, and shouldn't we expect the OoC topic to contain spoilers?
I'll become even more undignified than this

#287 User is offline   Avatara 

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 11:13 PM

QUOTE (Ragnar0k @ Jan 20 2010, 01:59 AM)
Moral of the story- anything you write is set in stone.

This is probably the #1 rule in order to preserve continuity.

Time Travel
I'm personally okay with this, I just want to make sure all the bases are covered. I don't quite follow your explanation (the limitation on where to jump) or how if he did make things better he could jump back to the original line, but it sounds like if your character was confronted with it, he could probably come up with an answer.

This seems like a good time to mention that anything in the "future" segment of your post is probably okay - after all, its a different timeline showing how things could be, not how they will be. So when I talk about your post, I'll be referring to the present time and its implications on future posts.

Ruffians
Well, there were two separate issues with this. The first I'll talk about later under "population". The second is, it feels a bit of a waste for masses of people to just die for little reason other than the Master said so. True, there should be a reason the guards are busy, though there's a number of other things that could do that (not least of which is alt-Wizard is technically in a good position to keep them out of the way). Since its not the Lord of the Rings style army I initially read it as, my stance isn't as negative as it was. Though I do think it will have an impact on everybody's actions in some way (even if its to go out of their way to avoid them), and I still believe it makes more sense to attack after dark. Because really, its harder to create confusion in broad daylight.

On population:
QUOTE
If we go by game canon there are, what, a dozen named characters in all of Cademia? Less? That's barely enough for a small village, let alone a city with castle included. I've been assuming that "we" were assuming the population of Cythera was at least the size of a small kingdom. At least enough to warrant the presence of cities and a king. If I'm wrong let me know.

I'll preface this section with two remarks: the first is Slayer's guide only lists major important characters. There's a bunch of other npcs (especially nameless hobos and vendors), so I wouldn't be surprised if 50-100 people are in Cademia in-game. Now, that's not much, and just like we scaled up Kosha, it makes sense to scale up Cademia as well.

The second remark is I don't think anybody has settled on an "official" head count for the story, so all of this is my conjecture. I think the population of Cademia can be counted in hundreds, as opposed to thousands (and naturally that puts an upper bound on the other towns as well, since they're all smaller). Of course, this point is open to debate.

On "why the heck aren't the heroes helping out at the castle?!":
I don't...think...this was my question. I was more warning that forcing a ruffian attack in the present time in the way it was would probably cause almost all the characters to act in ways different than you seemed to expect in the future. (Again, I don't think the future part needs to be changed because its an alternate timeline, I'm talking about your expectations for the present.)

Andru
We know he snuck a post in while you were writing. Probably expected that you missed it. wink.gif

The number of guards in the city
I'm not sure, several dozen?

Terrain
I don't think I'm qualified to talk about this. Someone else should, because its an important topic. The castle isn't a full-blown castle though, its more of a walled manor. There was a map somewhere of the interior.

What would Saltwax do [to my paint]?
The only issue is the ruffian attack pretty much forces them into action against the ruffians, and probably will lead them in the opposite direction from your warning. But that's really something for those authors to deal with. There's also some hidden irony going on, but I can't tell you, sorry.

On "the trap Selax plan falling apart because barbarians are at the gates":
QUOTE
Iannah would be aware of the sizable attack force that her people were mounting. She might have been surprised by the timing but her reaction to it falls squarely on the shoulders of Avatara or iKaterei. I couldn't say what she would do. I would however expect her to know that Selax was still on his way and be somehow informed of the situation. I thought they would be hiding out around the Old Houses, that's the whole reason I left the area untouched by the fighting in my post. During the ruffian attack one of the heroes might have had a problem with sitting around in relative safety with Iannah while the city went up in flames. I didn't think Avatara would care as long as he got his shot at Selax.

First off, I was trying to use this more as an example than a complaint. I've changed my plans in the past to suit the story where necessary (because of the golden rule at the beginning).

I thought we were actually in the slums on the other side of town, but not a big deal. I don't know if the Old Houses are abandoned or not, someone else more familiar with the situation should comment.

I can say an attack so early would actually hinder more than help alt-Selax's master plan right now (and pretty much keep him occupied elsewhere). I'm not sure if that was your intent or not (I don't fully know all your characters' loyalties). Selax can elaborate more on this.

On timing:
QUOTE
I meant for the time to be closer to five than noon, but I wasn't sure about listing the time of day as "Evening", that's a one word edit if you want me to go there. Since no one has actually posted what they did at day 8 (didn't everyone last post on day 7 and we were all going to agree the rest of the day was very boring the end?) I thought the hours from when they woke up to a little after five was a pretty good chunk of time. The only other group I've obligated with some sort of schedule is SKY, and I'm basically saying that whatever else they do that day they were at the Two Tailed Rat at least briefly at some point in the afternoon. SKY's last post ended there didn't it?

I just pretended the entire future segment happened at like 8 pm on day 8 or so (late "evening"), but its a different timeline.

I personally felt it'd be more interesting to have ended the post in early afternoon without an attack. That way we could hint at some of the bad stuff that happened in the future as if we were set on a course for destruction and freak out Seralcard some more.

Tossing in the sudden ruffian attack at the end pretty much just forces everyone to react (aside from those going back to fill in gaps), and there's not really a lot of time to explore possibilities. Certain characters are going to do certain things, or else they'll be out-of-character, and it just personally feels like a jump back from all the building up that's been going on recently. That's not to say the Hand can't attack the city later that night, I just don't think they should do so in your post (to give writers a chance to respond first).

Commentaries
QUOTE
One of the problems is that you guys weren't among the people I discussed this post with.

That was intentional (to adam as well). In my quest to preserve continuity, I usually end up privy to a bunch of spoilers, so I know how half the posts will go before I've even read them. Its nice once in a while to sit back and be surprised with something new, and sort out issues afterwards for a change of pace.

The Weather
I've asked this question and gotten an answer probably five times, but I've forgotten again (I need to write it in the reference at the front). What season did we settle on again?
"Sometimes I get confused whether I'm posting on ATT or in the War Room. But then I remind myself: If it's moderators acting scatter-brained and foolish, then it's the War Room*.

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#288 User is offline   iKaterei 

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 12:44 AM

Weather: I knew there was something I missed. It's late summer/early fall, and I think the sun is setting around 8-9 PM. (Or that's my best guess, it doesn't really get dark until 10:30-11 here in summer, but I'm somewhat farther north than all of you.)

#289 User is offline   Selax 

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 02:08 AM

I put up a short post. Basically, it describes how alt-Rapierian spends the rest of day 7: spying on Iannah's group (I'd prefer not caught, at least not yet). Rapierian spends the rest of it reading his book north of the city, and Beorn spends it in the room at the Inn, working on recovering from his injuries. This should put my characters in a position to go into Day 8.


Regarding your post, Ragnar0k , I don't really have time to write up any detailed comments about it until at least Friday (it might be helpful if you could get on irc sometime this weekend). (My apologies, it is turning into a busy week.)


I will say that I'm kind of concerned that we seem to be moving away from a TS with alt-NPCs and alt-TS characters coming from a divided alt-Cythera toward one with new villains and more common minions (the ruffians at least, though it sounds like there aren't too many of them) coming from a more united alt-Cythera. (I'm not saying this is happening, only that I fear the possibility.)
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#290 User is offline   Avatara 

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 03:34 AM

Who's the fifth person in the Hand? I have Ral, Kris, Kain, and Scry, but I can't figure who else is there in case someone wants to talk to the Hand. (Is it Jacob?)
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#291 User is offline   Two Jacks 

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 01:59 PM

It's Jacob.

#292 User is offline   Dark Jet 

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 02:08 PM

*Shakes fist at TJ for stealing my thunder*

Should be unless, he counted as 5 members + their leader (Jacob)

This post has been edited by Dark Jet: 21 January 2010 - 02:09 PM

old - new

iKaterei said:

i wish i could put ... in all caps

#293 User is offline   Two Jacks 

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 02:20 PM

QUOTE (Two Jacks @ Jan 21 2010, 10:59 AM)

QUOTE (Dark Jet @ Jan 21 2010, 11:08 AM)
*Shakes fist at TJ for stealing my thunder*

Should be unless, he counted as 5 members + their leader (Jacob)

And your lightnin'!

#294 User is offline   iKaterei 

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 05:10 PM

QUOTE (Avatara @ Jan 21 2010, 12:34 AM)
I can't figure who else is there in case someone wants to talk to the Hand.


We need a recording of Avatara saying, 'Talk to the Hand, sista!' Those in favour?











Also, I propose that each member of the Hand be referred to as a Finger.

This post has been edited by iKaterei: 21 January 2010 - 05:10 PM


#295 User is offline   adam_0 

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 05:22 PM

QUOTE (iKaterei @ Jan 21 2010, 02:10 PM)
We need a recording of Avatara saying, 'Talk to the Hand, sista!' Those in favour?

I!! tongue.gif

QUOTE (iKaterei @ Jan 21 2010, 02:10 PM)
Also, I propose that each member of the Hand be referred to as a Finger.

Who gets to be the middle finger?
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#296 User is offline   Dark Jet 

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 02:02 AM

Hey Ragnar0k, any chance you can join us on google wave or IRC? I've got a couple questions regarding Seralcard, a conversation with Jacob, and Cademia... or I guess I could PM you, but google wave/ IRC would be better tongue.gif
old - new

iKaterei said:

i wish i could put ... in all caps

#297 User is offline   Ragnar0k 

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 12:41 PM

Dark

- I can use Chatzilla... which is the same thing? heh, I'l get on irc today and stay there whenever I don't need to be elsewhere.

iKaterei

- Aye.

Avatara

- They were right, it's Jacob.

- I was so much in the mindset of "oh gosh, epic battles!" that I didn't even consider story opportunities I was missing out on and cutting off actually starting the attack in the post. I should have thought about it because the post probably would have been better but it just didn't come to mind. I intended for this big event to prompt immediate action from the writer's across the board and bring a bunch of the characters together by giving them something exciting to do. I also thought it could be cool. I realized though (thanks to what you've said) that throwing it out there at this point in the story was probably a bad call, even if I could justify it all within the plot. That's pretty debatable, lol.

I can edit this by removing the appearance of the ruffians at the end. I personally think it would be interesting if (by using some obscure clue Seralcard has given them) some characters stop the ruffian force from showing up (which would be scheduled for later in the night). If no one's up for it I could just write a piece where Seral does it himself. We can figure out a distraction for the guards as we go (or not figure one out since that future is altered).

If the issue is the razing of the ruffian force in the first place I can clear it from the post all together. That will just take a little more time since it's a bigger edit and I need to replace them with some x-factor. I'll do it if you guys want me too though, no problem.

Below is probably way more than any of you cares to know about Seral's time-travel abilities. Hopefully it will take care of any lingering confusion though.

QUOTE
In regard to time-travel... well hmmm. Seral's enchantment has two settings:

- take me to a random place/time.

- take me to the last place you randomly took me.

He randomly wound up in Cademia early Day 8. Since then he has lived the day many times without getting it right and had to "reset" the day. He always goes back to that morning because it is the only place/time he can go for certain.

Whenever Seral time travels he retains a knowledge of everything that happened and any items on his person. However, even though no one else remembers, his actions leave a vague "imprint" on the people he interacts with. That is why he seems familiar to the heroes, because he spent so much time with them in parallel time lines. By now he could have spent months just living Day 8 over and over trying different things.

The fact that he does this, changing small details, is really important to understanding how Seralcard will react in the posts of other writers (if you choose to have him show up). To explain it right though I need to use an example.

We'll go with my favorite of these examples, the sequence at the Two Tailed Rat Inn.

Let's say that on his first try at this Seral simply confronts Selax, Wizard, and Co. He messes it up though because they have no reason to trust this suspicious man. So in the end he goes back in time to try again.

On the second try he masquerades as Yomu and has Apis send the guys upstairs into his "trap". Unfortunately Selax and Talos are the first ones in the room and they thoroughly kick his ass. Back to the drawing board.

Now Seral goes back many times and each time he changes some small part of what he does. By the end he manipulates the situation so that Selax stays downstairs and the others come up in a specific order. He's been through the conflict so many times at this point that he knows exactly what to say and do so no one gets hurt (if you've never seen Groundhog Day I highly recommend it, it's funny and the analogy is great).

Make sense?

Seral has done that for the whole of Day 8. So for him there is a large time difference between the point where Avatara almost kills him and where Seral talks to Wizard at the inn. This means that Seral won't be surprised by anything that happens that day. He's lived it and slightly tweaked events for so long. There are certain big events that will surprise him though. That's because the timeline everyone else is writing in is Seralcard's final trip through the day, it is the best he could do and some unexpected things have to happen (in reaction to the changes he made) for him to settle with it. What are the big things? Totally up to you guys.

In conversation Seral would know what a character was about to say before they said it, almost word for word. In combat he would know almost move for move what an enemy was going to do since he fought them a few dozen times at that point. The only person that wouldn't work on is Scry, since she sees the future in real time and that trumps Seral's ability.

The following is techno-babble that hasn't made it into a post because I don't think explaining it will enrich the narrative. I've thought it all out though.

That's the easy part. This is where it gets slightly more complicated. When I discuss this with friends and other writers there are three questions that always come up:

1- If Seralcard keeps going back in time to a point he has already been why doesn't he meet a past or future version of himself?

2- He takes items from the future like Galahad's sword and Talos's armor and brings them into the past where they already exist, how does this not create a time paradox?

3- Presumably Seralcard may have spent months or years lost in time by now, does he need to sleep/eat and does he age?

Answers

1. Because of his enchantment Seral is stuck outside the flow of time so there is and can only be one of him in space/time right now past/present/future. This means that if he went back to Kosha on Day 6 it would reset everything he did there that night and he would have to do it over. I'm considering this event (one very like it) to have already happened to Seral more than once. I'm just too lazy to post about it because it adds nothing to the story. It is important to note that Seral can only ever go back as far as the moment just after he time traveled the very first time. Even randomly he couldn't jump back further because Nightmare protects itself from possible time-paradoxes. If he went there he could meet his past self and accidentally keep him from activating Nightmare at the exact right moment. No activation means no time-travel power, which means there could be no future version of Seralcard to stop himself from time-traveling like that, and on and on until it destroys all of space/time or gives you a mean headache.

2. "The same matter cannot occupy the same space at the same time." This is the Time-Cop theory or, more accurately, the Pauli exclusion principle poorly applied to time-travel. For everyone who hasn't seen that movie the theory goes as follows. If you take a future version of your pencil and bring it back to the present, then have the future and present versions of the pencil touch, one of two things will happen. 1) The Universe will explode. Or 2) The two pencils will fuse and then erase each other from existence. This doesn't apply to just pencils but you get the idea. The short response to this is, "That's a stupid theory." The long one goes, "That's a stupid theory that hinges on a vague misinterpretation of a basic law of physics."

3. For the first part of this question, yes Seral needs to eat and sleep. When does he do it? Well he doesn't engage in heroics every single trip through time. Sometimes he rests or heals up. Sometimes he trains, works on his enchantments, or tries to figure out how to fix Nightmare (which is what has him stuck in time).

For the second part, no actually. By removing him from time Nightmare is keeping him in a kind of stasis where he doesn't age as he normally would.


I hope that clears up some stuff?

This post has been edited by Ragnar0k: 22 January 2010 - 01:06 PM

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#298 User is offline   Jehezekel 

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 10:02 PM

Rag: So... what if Silver sneaked into Seralcard's backpack? Then what would happen? tongue.gif


But more on topic, I'm still not sure how to manifest my alternate(s). My original plan had been to have Silver & Jehezekel merge into a single entity, but as you can plainly see, that plan has been thoroughly scrapped. Perhaps alt-Silvekel (should be named that tongue.gif) should be in form what they would have formed, (basically Jehezekel with wings & minor metallist powers). Or perhaps they should each have an Alt.

Possible alt-Jehezekel: While sleeping looks the same, but a bit tattered. When awake, quite insane. Not Evil-bipolar-nutbat insane like Rapierian, but more paranoid-gymnast-thinks-he's-a-chicken type insane. He's fiercely loyal to alt-Selax & lives in a castle on the mountain crags in central alt-Cythera.

Possible alt-Silverfish: Rather than adopting a flying sort of character, this character has found his inspiration in the creatures of dank undergroundness; most notably crickets & toads. He has thus applied his abilities to being able to jump & blend with the dirt. He's something of a connoisseur of sadistic psychopaths & their ilk.

anyway, just a couple of ideas, I'd love some feedback if y'all aren't to preoccupied with issues that have current bearing on the story happy.gif


I'm definitely hoping to be able to pull off a Silver V. Ral duel at some point. Of course, I don't know how mana-based Ral's electrical attacks are, but I'm guessing just enough to make Silver very uncomfy but not enough to incapacitate him at the outset.
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#299 User is offline   Ragnar0k 

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Posted 23 January 2010 - 12:10 PM

Finger designations for the Hand:

Thumb - Jacob
Pointer - Scry
Middle - Kain
Ring - Ral
Pinky - Krys

I'm out for the weekend so if you have any questions or there's anything you guys want to discuss (Dark and Selax specifically but this is open to everyone) please PM me with all that so I can get back to you as soon as I get home. That'll be tomorrow afternoon or Monday.

I'm waiting for feedback from everyone so I can go back and make the rest of the edits to the post. Remember that if you're confused or something's bothering you but you don't tell me we can't work it out. Look forward to hearing from you guys.

Silver

I like the Silvekel fusion idea personally. Maybe he has his own territory in Alt-Cythera and no one goes there to mess with him because he's too powerful to fight recklessly and too crazy to work with or pose a threat of conquering everyone else?

This post has been edited by Ragnar0k: 23 January 2010 - 12:14 PM

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Posted 23 January 2010 - 03:55 PM

I'm planning a post set on the morning of day 8. I can hold off on actually posting it for a couple days if someone wants to finish up the YAKS+FB bit on day 7 to reduce some of the hopping around in time, but let me know.
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