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Liberal

#76 nemo

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 04:44 PM

Quote

Originally posted by Trah:
I'm wondering-- where do you get these crazy thoughts? Do your parents believe the same thing, or do they come to you in dreams, possibly drug-induced?

He's homeschooled and believes Fox News when they say that they're "fair and balanced".

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#77 vecoriwen

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 07:43 PM

Since when is separation of church and state Anti-American?!?

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#78 ShinobiGatakana

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 08:19 PM

Find a link highlighting a pictureo of the original constitutions amendments SPECIFICALLY stating church and state must be separated. I bet you a dollar you wont find it. BECAUSE IT NEVER SAYS IT. Separation of church and state is impossible, made so by the first paragraph of the constitution. Argue that.

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#79 Trah

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 08:46 PM

Quote

Originally posted by vecoriwen:
Since when is separation of church and state Anti-American?!?

It is in your best interest to ignore LifeKnight-- unless you enjoy extreme frustration

Quote

Originally posted by ShinobiGatakana:
Find a link highlighting a pictureo of the original constitutions amendments SPECIFICALLY stating church and state must be separated. I bet you a dollar you wont find it. BECAUSE IT NEVER SAYS IT. Separation of church and state is impossible, made so by the first paragraph of the constitution. Argue that.

Quote

Amendment 1
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Whether it is an amendment or part of the original text is irrelevant, there should be, and is for the most part, separation of church and sate in the U.S.A.
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#80 Avatara

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 08:51 PM

Try the [url="http://"http://www.house.gov/Constitution/Amend.html"]first amendment[/url].

Quote

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,

The thing is, as some religions don't believe in the Christian God, having references to him in laws by the government is favoring Christianity over other religions, such as perhaps, Buddhism.

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#81 Avatara

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 08:52 PM

Trah beat me to it, I took the time to find a link proving it. Posted Image

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#82 nemo

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 09:01 PM

Quote

[url="http://"http://candst.tripod.com/tnppage/qmadison.htm"]Here's a list of quotes by James Madison on the issue.[/url]

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#83 ShinobiGatakana

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 09:14 PM

that is only an interpretation of the text. It says no where "there shall be a separation of church and state", or any thing of the sort. It meerly states there shall be no law made that infringes the rights of a religion to be practiced within this country. It never says they have to be separated.

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" The Lord is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower. I will call upon the Lord, who is worthy to be praised: so shall I be saved from mine enemies."
~~Psalms 18:2-3

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#84 Trah

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 09:17 PM

Quote

Originally posted by ShinobiGatakana:
that is only an interpretation of the text. It says no where "there shall be a separation of church and state", or any thing of the sort. It meerly states there shall be no law made that infringes the rights of a religion to be practiced within this country. It never says they have to be separated.

How can you have not favor any religion, yet have a religion directly influence government?

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#85 Pufer

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 09:34 PM

Quote

Federalists and Libertarians would contend that, while there is nothing that comes out and states that a separation will exist, the Constitution never states that the government has the power to establish a state religion, therefore a separation must exist (probably intentional). If nothing else, the individual states may give themselves power to do this and declare a state religion, but it can never happen at the Federal level. Besides, current discrimination law prohibits the state's sponsorship of any one religion over any other, if the state ever did sponsor any single religion, I, and many others no doubt, would be on the courtroom steps the next morning filing a lawsuit. Your statement is correct, but the fact that you presented can support the other side's opinion just as easily as it can yours.

-Pufer

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“Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who said it, even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.” -The Buddha

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who said it, even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense." -The Buddha

#86 Trah

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Posted 29 July 2004 - 12:10 AM

Quote

Originally posted by Pufer:
if the state ever did sponsor any single religion, I, and many others no doubt, would be on the courtroom steps the next morning filing a lawsuit.

I bet the ACLU would invent time-travel so the could launch a pre-emptive lawsuit.

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#87 vecoriwen

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Posted 29 July 2004 - 01:14 AM

Hold on! I forgot the crystals!

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#88 lobf

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Posted 29 July 2004 - 05:36 AM

Quote

LifeKnight said:
You're liars. You're there to stop people from hear about Jesus by pulling it out of our schools, and putting false ideas into the heads of our children. If this wasn't so serious, we wouldn't need any entertainment. We'd just watch liberals and their left wing, anti-American antics.

By not favoring any government, LifeKnight, the founding fathers made it possible for Christianity to exist forever. If Christianity is given free reign in the government, that would give any other religion possible political power in the future. You can't say "The government shall make no law favoring any religion...except Christianity". Are you questioning the founding fathers, LifeKnight? You're 13 years old. Have you even had a government class at all? America is about freedom, LifeKnight, and that means for all people. "Liberals" separating the church from the government are not destroying your religion, but helping preserve it. They are religious people too, you know, and they care about keeping their religion alive, but at the same time keeping the state intact, which means without Jesus defining which road we take. Go ahead, be religious. Heck, that was why we're here in the first place: Religious freedom, just don't throw it in others' faces.

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#89 vecoriwen

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Posted 29 July 2004 - 02:38 PM

Kudos to you Lotsofblackflags. Well said.

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#90 Shrout1

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Posted 29 July 2004 - 03:14 PM

What troubles me most, however, is the loss of moral guidelines in general. I mean, what is right and wrong anymore? When we slide into the grey zone we are only a step away from losing our grip entirely.

Science cannot define morals, man cannot determine them. What is scientifically wrong with murder? If what you believe is right, and what I believe is also right, then World War II was fought in vain and the Nazis had every right to commit the atrocities they did. Without something to definitively tell you "This is wrong" one can slide into depravity far too easily.

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#91 vecoriwen

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Posted 29 July 2004 - 03:25 PM

Well, yes. Religion has helped our race define morals. However, I don't beleive that religion is necessary in our government to up-keep these morals. If it were Hindus or Jews running the government, we would have the same morals. Its not just the Christians with proper views on humanity.

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If a Mime dies in the streets of Paris, and there is only a goat to see it...Does any give a crap?

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#92 ShinobiGatakana

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Posted 29 July 2004 - 04:05 PM

I still think separtation of church and state is udder bs. I think that each religion should have a say in governmenatl operation. Religion and faith is how people keep faith. I would enjoy hearing what a Buddhist monk had to say about his view of the governments operation, or a Muslim's, or a Catholics, or Baptist, or a Rabbi, or Al-Jihad preacher. Any religion is welcom in this country, I just dont there should be a separation. Separtaion implies no effect on something else. Well, sorry to break it to you, but Religion does affect our lives as much as the government. Maybe they should work together for the better of the world. Possibly a council of Religious elders from all over the world conveigning like the UN. Would that be so bad. Maybe we'd even be able to solve that whole Palestine/Jerusalem thing in the process. It sounds good to. But I am open to suggestions...

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" The Lord is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower. I will call upon the Lord, who is worthy to be praised: so shall I be saved from mine enemies."
~~Psalms 18:2-3

It's so hard to see when your eyes are rolling in the back of your head
It's even harder to speak when everything you say just comes out wrong

#93 Alicia Rose

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Posted 29 July 2004 - 05:12 PM

Quote

Originally posted by ShinobiGatakana:
snazzipp

Your idea sounds good, but we'd need to have equal representation - i.e. a representative from EVERY religion. So besides Christianity, and Buddhism, and Islam, and so on, we'd need representatives from the Wiccans, the Pagans, the Satanists, and so forth. Then you might have people who made up their own religions, and it would turn into a big mess of people the size of a small country. Posted Image

So while in theory it sounds good, it's like communism - human nature prevents it from working effectively.

[edit]And the sects, I forgot about those! The smaller religions have just as many as the larger ones, you know. Posted Image

[/edit]

Divals

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#94 nemo

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Posted 29 July 2004 - 05:14 PM

Religion is not required to define morals. It may have done so originally, but I can't imagine it makes sense to assert that we're all going to hell in a handbasket for trying to keep religion, which is static, separated from government, which like humanity, is fluid.

I know that murder is bad, but that's because it's what I was taught and what I believe, not because it's one of the 10 Commandments. I know that adultery is wrong, and I would never do it, but that is as a result of my love for and devotion to my girlfriend.

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#95 Avatara

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Posted 29 July 2004 - 08:41 PM

Quote

Originally posted by vecoriwen:
Well, yes. Religion has helped our race define morals. However, I don't beleive that religion is necessary in our government to up-keep these morals.

Morals aren't defined by religion. Morals and ethics are the expectations people impose on others. Society says its wrong to murder people, so its morally wrong for them to do so - if someone murders a person, society will shun them as a moral outcast and they'll be pretty miserable and lonely.

Religion was one way of some person imposing their ideas on morality on a whole bunch of people. Christianity is a good example, if you didn't do what the Pope liked, he could "excommunicate" you and you'd be condemned to this "hell" of eternal suffering.

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#96 vecoriwen

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Posted 29 July 2004 - 09:04 PM

I said religion helped define morals. Long ago humans had religions in which the majority of their Gods were ruthless (read: not ones to upset).One of the main reasons morals were developed, I beleive, was to please the Gods. In fact, today those morals might not even be "correct." We just have been brought up to believe that they are.
Also, we are hipocrites to say that Murder is wrong, while yet our government supports the death sentence. Yes, perhaps they have done something wrong, but its still murder.

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#97 nemo

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Posted 29 July 2004 - 10:08 PM

Quote

Originally posted by vecoriwen:
One of the main reasons morals were developed, I beleive, was to please the Gods.

I would say that the Gods were developed to help preserve moral thinking.

Quote

Also, we are hipocrites to say that Murder is wrong, while yet our government supports the death sentence. Yes, perhaps they have done something wrong, but its still murder.

Murder refers to an unjust and immoral killing. One who is sentenced to death and executed in the United States has been given a fair trial and found guilty of committing the crimes of which they are accused and is thusly not a victim of murder.

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"Music is the only thing in this world, with the exception of sneezing and looking at the sunset, that takes you to a place that's above the mundane. Everything else is just bull****." - Stephan Jenkins
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Courtesy of LawnGnome and Chad, [url="http://"http://www.roosteredge.com/lawngnome/forums/nemogf.gif"]"nemo and Jshei"[/url] and [url="http://"http://www.roosteredge.com/chad/Portraits/nemo_jshei1.jpg"]"The Lovers"[/url], respectively.

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#98 Shrout1

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Posted 29 July 2004 - 11:01 PM

Quote

Originally posted by nemo:
Religion is not required to define morals.

I know that murder is bad, but that's because it's what I was taught and what I believe, not because it's one of the 10 Commandments.

Heh...

Quote

Originally posted by Avatara:
Morals aren't defined by religion. Morals and ethics are the expectations people impose on others. Society says its wrong to murder people, so its morally wrong for them to do so - if someone murders a person, society will shun them as a moral outcast and they'll be pretty miserable and lonely.

So please tell me where society gets its bearings from then? Nothingness? Certainly the Nazis found human slaughter to be acceptable, and if society decides, then it must be fine, yes?

And, FYI - I 100% agree with seperation of church and state - I don't think a prayer in Congress is cause to take action, but as much as I wouldn't want to be forced to share in other's beliefs, I understand they wouldn't want to be forced to share with me.

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#99 Trah

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Posted 29 July 2004 - 11:13 PM

Quote

Originally posted by Shrout1:
So please tell me where society gets its bearings from then? Nothingness? Certainly the Nazis found human slaughter to be acceptable, and if society decides, then it must be fine, yes?

Before religion people weren't murdering everyone else for no reason. I don't know where morals came from, but I do know it wasn't religion as we know it- certainly not Christianity.

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#100 Pufer

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Posted 29 July 2004 - 11:41 PM

Quote

Originally posted by vecoriwen:
I said religion helped define morals. Long ago humans had religions in which the majority of their Gods were ruthless (read: not ones to upset).One of the main reasons morals were developed, I beleive, was to please the Gods. In fact, today those morals might not even be "correct." We just have been brought up to believe that they are.

You've very nearly hit the nail on the head with that, vec, good job. I will, however, point out that it is much more likely that the western concept of collective morality, as we understand it today, stems from the individual not wanting to incur the wrath of his/her church, not God. Also, this all came to be relatively recently in terms of western civilization, primarilly because of the Catholic Church's influence over the later Roman Empire and Europe during the "Dark Ages."

I personally believe in what is known as variable morality. I'll adjust my moral code to accept whatever I have to do, so long as it directly suits my purposes. This is to say that there really isn't anything out there that I won't do on the basis of morality, so long as I can profit from it (rape and perhaps murder are the sole exceptions to this. I wouldn't, however, commit acts of espionage or treason, but that is more out of a sense of duty, not morality).

-Pufer

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“Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who said it, even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.” -The Buddha

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who said it, even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense." -The Buddha