4th of July

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4th of July

#101 Zortrium

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Posted 20 July 2003 - 01:07 AM

Quote

Originally posted by moonunit4eva:
I'm not blinded by patriotism. Why wouldn't you want to support our president? It's not like Gore would have done a better job. Gore's an absolute scum bag. He would have been the next Clinton. Not to mention, Bush is going to spend his whole term cleaning up everything that everyone else had done wrong, so he's not going to be able to do any real good for the country.

Damn conservatives. Posted Image

I agree with everything Trah said, with the exception that the economic plummet is entirely his fault. While he certainly didn't help much and I don't mind blaming him, the economy will have natural flucuations (sp?) regardless of leadership.

The "screw the UN" move, however, really bugs me. He's undermining the UN and basically declaring it worthless. It's turning out like the League of Nations - it's destined to fail when the superpowers abandon it.

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#102 Mag Steelglass

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Posted 21 July 2003 - 01:38 AM

Well, unfortunately, there's really just about nothing the UN can do, other than saying things like "Please don't do that." Police (which I think of the UN as a form of, for keeping countries in line rather than individuals) can enforce what they say because they are more powerful than the average criminals. The UN is very weak, militarily, so it has no way to force countries to do what it want them to do (which could also be taken as a good thing, lest somebody manage to get control of it and, therefore, the world).

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#103 Trah

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Posted 21 July 2003 - 09:22 AM

Quote

Originally posted by Mag Steelglass:
Well, unfortunately, there's really just about nothing the UN can do, other than saying things like "Please don't do that." Police (which I think of the UN as a form of, for keeping countries in line rather than individuals) can enforce what they say because they are more powerful than the average criminals. The UN is very weak, militarily, so it has no way to force countries to do what it want them to do (which could also be taken as a good thing, lest somebody manage to get control of it and, therefore, the world).

It would have much more power if the US went along with them. Now people can say the US didn't do what the UN said so why should I? The UN works only if people use it.

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#104 Mag Steelglass

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Posted 21 July 2003 - 08:56 PM

Precisely.

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#105 Pufer

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Posted 21 July 2003 - 09:37 PM

Quote

Originally posted by Trah:
It would have much more power if the US went along with them. Now people can say the US didn't do what the UN said so why should I? The UN works only if people use it.

The US goes along with the UN more than just about any other country, and when there is a problem look who the UN comes running to: the good ol' US of A (I'm speaking of the crisis in Liberia here). In most matters the UN can say, "Please don't do that, because if you don't the Americans might...you know." and countries listen (because occasionally the US will go crazy and attack, backing up the UN). In this case, however, the UN had the full support of France who (if they saw fit) could have attacked us in support for the UN (we've justified many actions this way, of course we would have leveled France in order to use it for a storage area for all of that good Iraqi oil we'll be getting). If a peacekeeping force is being assembled many countries base their decisions on whether to send troops on whether or not America is sending some of her own best men.

You may be forgetting that the UN said that Iraq had to submit unconditionally to the weapons inspectors after the Gulf War, they didn't and refused to enforce what they said when Iraq refused, thus, by your own contention, they proved that the system didn't work, the US came forward and put the teeth back into the UN. Now if the UN says that they want inspectors in any other country, the country better damn well bend over and take it, or America will...you know.

-Pufer

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#106 Mag Steelglass

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Posted 21 July 2003 - 11:53 PM

I know that there are fees that countries are supposed to pay to the UN, and the US hasn't paid its in years.

And I've heard a lot of stuff about the inspections in Iraq being a fiasco, with checking the same places repeatedly after they'd been cleared and finding everything acceptable again, so my guess for not cooperating would be the Iraqis that were running the storage depots and whatnot getting tired of it?

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#107 Sundered Angel

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Posted 22 July 2003 - 07:01 AM

The US goes along with the UN more than any other country? It's used it's Security Council veto something like 70 times, as opposed to, say, France, which has used its veto 2 times.

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#108 Pufer

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Posted 22 July 2003 - 09:22 PM

Quote

Originally posted by Mag Steelglass:
I know that there are fees that countries are supposed to pay to the UN, and the US hasn't paid its in years.

"The United States is today and has always been the largest financial contributor to the United Nations System."

Quote

Originally posted by Mag Steelglass:
And I've heard a lot of stuff about the inspections in Iraq being a fiasco, with checking the same places repeatedly after they'd been cleared and finding everything acceptable again, so my guess for not cooperating would be the Iraqis that were running the storage depots and whatnot getting tired of it?

The UN could place the whole team of inspectors permanantly in a storage depot just to watch the operations contained inside 24/7 and the Iraqi storage depot patrons would have to sit and take it by the terms set by the UN after the Gulf War. They had every right to "get tired of it" but they had no recourse (and Hussein's government should have assured that they cooperated fully with the inspectors, he didn't so he violated the terms).

Quote

Originally posted by Sundered Angel:
The US goes along with the UN more than any other country? It's used it's Security Council veto something like 70 times, as opposed to, say, France, which has used its veto 2 times.

That only explains what the US has done inside the UN itself and only proves conclusively that the US is more active than France in the Security Council.

-Pufer

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#109 Mag Steelglass

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Posted 22 July 2003 - 09:42 PM

Looks like I was wrong about the contributions bit.

Regarding the inspections: keep in mind that there really is no such thing as "power." It's all imaginary. Individuals do what they want to do. They follow the laws because they don't want to get into trouble. They break the laws because they don't mind the risk of getting in trouble compared to completing whatever objective they have when they break it. In the case of the inspections, I would not be surprised if some of them had disobeyed orders from Saddam and the other folks up high on the old Iraqi food chain.

Also, it was the US that kept forcing the UN to do the inspections. From what I gathered during them, the UN would not have kept it up had the US not made them.

And, less of an argument and more of a pointing-out-flawed-logic type of thing: the use of more vetoes does not prove conclusively that the US was more active in the UN than France, it just proves conclusively that the US vetoed more things than France. France could theoretically have been more active in other ways, yadda yadda.

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#110 Trah

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Posted 22 July 2003 - 10:09 PM

Quote

Originally posted by hawk:
My point simply was that Moore is a liar himself.

What evidence is there of that?

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#111 Sundered Angel

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Posted 23 July 2003 - 05:40 AM

Quote

Originally posted by Pufer:
That only explains what the US has done inside the UN itself and only proves conclusively that the US is more active than France in the Security Council.

-Pufer

No, it simply proves conclusively that the US is more actively obstructive than France.

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#112 moonunit4eva

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Posted 23 July 2003 - 05:18 PM

I'm not going to argue over this...but, nobody really knows what's been going on. None of you have much info to back your sides up. Not enough proof on either side so. Once you get some unbiased proof, I'm sticking with my side.

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#113 hawk

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Posted 24 July 2003 - 07:57 AM

Quote

Originally posted by moonunit4eva:
Gore's an absolute scum bag. He would have been the next Clinton.

He isn't as interesting as Clinton, yet would probably have made a better president.

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#114 hawk

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Posted 24 July 2003 - 08:09 AM

Quote

Originally posted by Trah:
Ack. Just ack. I wish Deep Blue was here. He would make a great comment.
Back in the good 'ol days (before 2000) the US economy was high, the world liked us, we weren't in war. Supreme cout gives Bush the win. Economy plumits, his feeble attempts to stimulate it fail. 9/11. The world is behind us. Afganhistan goes fairly well. World still mostly supports us. Iraq. Majority of the world doesn't agree with us. Bush goes to the UN. Doesn't get what he wants. Says "screw you, we're going in anyway." World goes from support to hate. It is found that Bush lied about certain claims that got us to war. Where to now? Another un-just war in Iran or Korean?

The economy actually started going sour before Bush took office. I recall a particularly moronic letter to the Chicago Tribune shortly after election day that said, "Why is it that anytime a Bush gets close to the White House, the economy goes bad?" My point, however, is that reduced consumer confidence isn't a result of Bush, and probably not of everyone else.

The world wasn't behind us when we went to Iraq... oh well. I've said before that the military actions taken by the United States is up to the United States. International cooperation is all well and good, but it's not the job of the rest of the world, or the United Nations, to dictate to us how we may use our armed forces, something the rest of the world seems to believe they have the right to do.

Bush's line about uranium in the SOTUA is being vastly blown out of proportion, and has gone from being a possible intelligence error (though British intelligence maintains that it was true) to somehow being a fabrication, and the only basis for our removal of Hussein.

Read [url="http://"http://denbeste.nu/cd_log_entries/2003/07/Microscopicview.shtml"]this[/url] article by Steven den Beste.

Iran isn't "next", especially with North Korea heating up. The DPRK is a serious threat to the far east, especially since they are actively pursuing nuclear weapons and aren't keeping that a secret. Military operations to remove that capability would be entirely justified, IMO.

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#115 hawk

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Posted 24 July 2003 - 08:35 AM

Quote

Originally posted by Trah:
What evidence is there of that?

[url="http://"http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html"]This[/url] should give you a good picture.

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#116 Captaintripps

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Posted 04 July 2004 - 10:08 PM

Happy happy.

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#117 Pufer

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Posted 05 July 2004 - 12:02 AM

Whee! Happy fourth, y'all. Posted Image

-Pufer

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#118 GandalfDaddy

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Posted 05 July 2004 - 12:41 AM

In Utah, they won't set off fireworks cause its on Sunday. Bastards.

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#119 Avatara

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Posted 05 July 2004 - 12:56 AM

Bah, I was thinking up a reply to the first page of arguments, until I started noticing the dates.

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#120 Tanis Half-Halo

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Posted 05 July 2004 - 01:36 AM

Quote

Originally posted by TheRedeemer:
Your wrong. The world Loved Clinton. Even though he was a liar and he cheated on his wife, he was the best damn President the U.S has ever had. Bush is a dangerous, oil greedy war mongerer, who should never have been put into power.

Take it from me, Clinton is far from the best President we ever had. That moron let Bin Laden escape when we could easily have caught him.

Quote

I just don't see what gives America the God given right to push everyone else around. I'd love to see North Korea turn around to America and say 'You have stockpiles of Nuclear and Biological weapons, all can be ready to fire in under 45 minutes, and If you don't disarm in the next month, we will Invade you' It seems silly, but It's no different to what the Bush administration is doing at the moment, there just bullies, plain and Simple.

First off, we help police the world's trouble spots because we can. With the most money and greatest military, we're the perfect people for the job.

Secondly, who really cares if North Korea invades us? Our missiles alone could shoot them all down, and even if a few got past us, our F-18's, none of which has ever been destroyed in combat(Or was it F-16's?) could finish them off.

Thirdly, don't comment on US policy if you have no idea why they do what they do. Afghanistan was home to a terroristic and abusive regime that needed toppling. It was the base of a terror network that killed 3,000 of our citizens without warning. Iraq had WAMD and was also home to an abusive regime that killed hundreds of thousands.

<Edit> And uh, Tripps, what's with bringing all this crap up again?
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#121 lobf

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Posted 05 July 2004 - 09:10 AM

I don't like participating in arguments like this, as it is generally clueless kids arguing with much more intelligent and well established older folks. I am trying to wait until I have a bit more depth of experience before I decide to get involved in a serious argument like this. Tanis Half Halo (I know this) is just repeating things that his parents say, like Trah. I mean no disrespect to either of you, but in reality, you don't know jack. I would like to touch upon one issue here, though.

Quote

Tanis said:
Take it from me, Clinton is far from the best President we ever had. That moron let Bin Laden escape when we could easily have caught him.

I assume that you are talking about the Yugoslavian situation (or do you even know? You may just be repeating anti-liberal things that you have heard around. It wouldn't surprise me. You've done it before). Clinton was offered Bin-laden, but it was in exchange for dealing with other terrorists. If you still have a head on your two shoulders, you would know that the US Government does -not- bargain with terrorists. That is just as much of a lie as anything Michael Moore says. It is a twist of the truth.

As I said before: I don't know anything. I am too young. I am now trying to gain some life experience before I decide that I am ready to say my real political beliefs. Tanis and Trah, you should do the same.

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#122 Zortrium

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Posted 05 July 2004 - 01:37 PM

LOL u LooZErZ bSUh is ROXor!1!!

Actually, I just wanted to tell everyone that I almost fell out of my seat when I saw a four page topic "appear" overnight.

That is all.

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#123 Avatara

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Posted 05 July 2004 - 01:58 PM

Exactly, it was like "what the hell happened while I was gone?"

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#124 The Journalist

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Posted 05 July 2004 - 02:12 PM

Trash Talk has lost its mind

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#125 lobf

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Posted 05 July 2004 - 03:27 PM

That's how I felt. I don't think the ATT has ever had a more serious topic (except for some of the MotherLove accusation threads)

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