Ambrosia Software Web Board: 4th of July - Ambrosia Software Web Board

Well, it is now officially the fourth of July here in good 'ol Pennsylvania. And it is time to show our pride in the USA. But wait. I have very little pride in my country. It is a total disaster.

1. Iraq and Afghanistan are a mess. Bush just declares the war to be over and doesn't pay attention to them afterwards. He has no plan on what to do during the regime change, and people are looting, being killed, and living in chaos.

2. John Ashcroft is pushing to take away basic rights. The Patriot Act makes it legal for the government to put people in jail without giving a reason. They say it will help protect us from "terror". Quote: "I'd rather be a free man in my grave, than living as a puppet or a slave." I believe that the terrorists have won because of the Patriot act. They have changed our basic lifestyle. I would rather have some people, maybe myself, die then see freedom slowly taken away in the name of safety.

3. Bush's administration has made the entire world hate us. The world liked Clinton. Now that Bush is in power and wielding the USA's great power as if no one else matters, everyone resents and hates us. That is very bad.

4. Bush is giving tax cuts to the rich. He has totally killed the surplus created by the Clinton administration. He isn't funding basic things such as schools and healthcare.

5. My Fellow Americans have no idea this is going on. They are all blinded by patriotism, and will probably end of electing (not re-electing) this disaster of a president again.

I am glad I am out of this troubled country for 6 months this coming January.

I know that was a bit of a rant and that is why I posted it here. If I had posted in JC I would have been flamed to death.

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my [url="http://"http://home.ptd.net/~hart1"]Home Page.[/url] Now with a link farm, picture gallery, section on Australia, and golf.

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1. Hm...at least we installed a new government in Afghanistan and sent over an administration team to Iraq. How can Bush be blamed for this? If he unilaterally created a new government, the international community would spit.

2. Dead right. The Patriot Act is disgusting.

3. This sounds like a rationale for doing "what everybody else is doing" even if it's wrong. Personally, I do what is right, not what would sound good.

4. What is wrong with giving tax cuts to the rich? I agree that balancing the budget is an important priority though—and they way you do it is cut Social Security, which is pretty much an unconstitutional waste of tax money. I bet that when I get to retirement age it won't even exist anymore, and my hard-earned cash that I gave to Social Security won't end up benefiting me.

5. Your "fellow Americans" may not know what's going on, but I'm pretty sure these are the same people who are not voting. Additionally, he would be "re-elected" because he was elected in the first place...the only reason that there was any controversy is that Gore went to the courts to get permission to break the law. And the courts let him! So if Gore had won, he would have been as much a "court-appointed President" as Bush.

Well, I think you can tell that I don't feel he is a "disaster of a President", either.

-cybergnu

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The cops took down my resumé, but I'm working on getting a Geocities page.

edit: I don't know what this was.

[This message has been edited by Pufer (edited 07-07-2003).]

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Afghanistan isn't that bad, but should have had a better plan. Iraq is a complete disaster, in my opinion. Bush can be blamed because he is president.

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I wish the media was making a bigger deal of it...

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I don't think what the US did was right. They basically said, if the UN says it is o.k. to invade Iraq great. If not, screw 'em. We don't need their help. I hate having the world hate me for something a leader I don't like did.

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Rich people are rich. They don't need more money. Why not give it the people who need it? Also the military is over funded.

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The way we choose the president is horrible. Gore got over 500,000 more votes. In my book, he won. In my school I here people saying they don't understand why people hate us. My mom hears the same thing at her work, as does my dad. If they understood, they might realize what a mess we are in.

In 100 years, history books will look back on this time as a time of bad leadership and extreme instability in the world. I can only hope they go on to say things improved after the 2004 elections, and not how the USA spiraled downwards and went the way of the Roman Empire. (The USA now shows a lot of the same characteristics as the Roman Empire did right before it's fall.)

I used to be proud to be an American, but now I am not. I will be again proud if changes are made in the government in the next 5 years.


EDIT: Pufer, did you mean to just quote me? With no reply?
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my [url="http://"http://home.ptd.net/~hart1"]Home Page.[/url] Now with a link farm, picture gallery, section on Australia, and golf.

[This message has been edited by Trah (edited 07-04-2003).]

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1. If Bush isn't paying attention to the conquered countries, why is he keeping so many troops over there.

2. The Patriot Act is complete and total bullcrap, but at least Clinton wasn't able to take away our guns so we have a defence against an overbearing government.

3. Most of the world hasn't cared for us since the beginning of the cold war, most countries that hate us now have hated us for a long time but the public is just now hearing about it.

4. There should be a "flat tax" in America, everyone gets up in arms about class descrimination when the wealthy screw the poor when the government is screwing the wealthy based on their societal class and noone cares.

5. President Bush will be re-elected because the Democratic Party won't be able to a) raise enough money to support their man, and put its full support behind one candidate until the convention, which is way too late to mount a full charge.

Bush is in no way as bad as Clinton, he just happens to be President during a very troubled time, America is the problem, not Bush.

-Pufer

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"I do not fear computers. I fear the lack of them" -Issac Asimov

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Well, Happy 4th of July anyway

I agree, we should choose Presidents by "most votes." However, that wasn't the law at the time of the election (though I did read an interesting essay that claimed that the electoral college system was necessary because large states would send ALL of their college members to vote for one candidate, even if that candidate won by a 1% margin).

-cybergnu

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The cops took down my resumé, but I'm working on getting a Geocities page.

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He "finished" Afghanistan. He went to Iraq. He now "finished" Iraq. Is Iran or North Korea next? Three wars in 2 years is too many.

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ARGGGG. Not the gun issue. Let's not go there.

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The world was starting to turn during the Clinton administration. Bush had the worlds support after 9/11, which he successfully lost within 2 years.

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There should be a nearly flat tax. I don't think the poor should pay as much as the rich so they have a chance to improve there lives. If someone is poor and can't get a good education they will stay poor.

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He won't be re-elected if the Dems can get the message of what a poor job he is doing out. Right now, I think he would win. I think that a good campaign will give the Dems a great chance to win. I am looking forward to the debates to see how Bush answers questions.

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Bush is far worse. During Clintons administration, we lived in prosperity and happiness. The world liked us, we weren't at war, we had all our basic freedoms intact, life was good and we had no big worries. If that ridiculous Monica Lewinsky thing is what you mean, the USA has truly fallen beyond repair. That is only a big deal because this country is so taboo about sexual things. If that had happened anywhere else in the world no one would have cared one bit. He was declared innocent anyway.

As I said in my previous post, Bush will be looked on as an unsuccessful president in the history books 100 years from now.

EDIT: I forgot, Bush is America. It is his mess. He created it.

I should have posted this in the Ferazel Hacking or somehing. I didn't know so many people looked in on good 'ol TT.

O Yes, Happy 4th of July Everyone

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my [url="http://"http://home.ptd.net/~hart1"]Home Page.[/url] Now with a link farm, picture gallery, section on Australia, and golf.

[This message has been edited by Trah (edited 07-04-2003).]

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Two people isn't that much.

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dude3 -- he'd rather go to Viet Nam
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Your wrong. The world Loved Clinton. Even though he was a liar and he cheated on his wife, he was the best damn President the U.S has ever had. Bush is a dangerous, oil greedy war mongerer, who should never have been put into power.

Your right about the situation in Iraq aswell. If we were doing the people of Iraq a great favour by ousting Sadamm, Then why were 6 British Military Police, who are there to protect the Iraqi's, killed earlier this week, one of whom was only twenty years old.

And whatever happened to 'Innocent until proven guilty'? Due to the Patriot act any Muslim could now be arrested without reason, its ridiculous, some people in Camp X-Ray have been held without trial for over a year. You call this democracy? Sounds more like what the Nazi's were doing to Jew's during world war two.

As for your other points, I can't really comment, because I'm not American and they don't really effect me. And your right, If you had posted this on Just Chat you would have been murdered.

TheRedeemer


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- "Children today are tyrants. They contradict their parents, gobble their food, and tyrannize their teachers." Socrates 460-399 BC. Some things never change!
- Yes, I do have a sense of humour, I just can't remember where I left it.
- Warning - High levels of dry sarcasm.
- Member of the WZ Gang.

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Actually, I think you'll find that anybody, not just Muslims, can now be arrested and held without trial or contact. That's how it's going to be in Australia shortly unless they block the ASIO bill.

But you're right, mostly it'll be Muslims who are arrested under the Patriot Act. At least at first...

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Sundered Angel,
The One and Only
Ares Webboard Moderator, and all-around Nice Guy

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Yeh I know, I was making the point that they seem to be targetting only muslims at the moment, soon it'll probably be all asians, then all those who are non-aryan. I elaborate of course, but the way thing's are going I can't rule anything out.

I just don't see what gives America the God given right to push everyone else around. I'd love to see North Korea turn around to America and say 'You have stockpiles of Nuclear and Biological weapons, all can be ready to fire in under 45 minutes, and If you don't disarm in the next month, we will Invade you' It seems silly, but It's no different to what the Bush administration is doing at the moment, there just bullies, plain and Simple.

It's not just the U.S I am annoyed with though, It's Tony Blair aswell, usually I wouldn't be that bothered with our country getting friendly with the world superpower, but two wars in two years is just going to far. The war in Afghanistan I can live with, because we knew Osama Bin Laden was based there, and we had tapes telling us that Al Quada were responsible for the September 11th attacks. But Iraq? We have no evidence that they have links to terrorism, we have no evidence they have weapons of mass destruction. Did anyone notice what the first thing we did when we invaded was? We secured the Oil fields, we didnt go to take down there alleged weapon sites.
Securing the Iraq's interests we were, my arse were we. The truth is the world is running out of oil and guess what country has one of the largest oil resources, Iraq. So, everyone knew Sadamm hated the America and the west, but so do loads of small countries, Just Look at Zimbabwe, should we be Invading them?

One last point, Blair didn't even listen to his people. We elected him, he should show us some respect. Well over half the population of the UK did not believe in going to war, but he did it anyway. Democracy? Ha! We've got a couple of crazed power-mad jumped up little Hitlers on our hands here, and If it carries on like this, it isn't going to be pretty.

Sorry for the ranting, but no-one I usually talk to gives a damn about politics, so I need to get it all out somewhere.

TheRedeemer

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- "Children today are tyrants. They contradict their parents, gobble their food, and tyrannize their teachers." Socrates 460-399 BC. Some things never change!
- Yes, I do have a sense of humour, I just can't remember where I left it.
- Warning - High levels of dry sarcasm.
- Member of the WZ Gang.

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Great. I am leaving the US to escape the Patriot Act, and am going right into another, maybe.

I am glad to see you agree with me TheRedeemer.

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my [url="http://"http://home.ptd.net/~hart1"]Home Page.[/url] Now with a link farm, picture gallery, section on Australia, and golf.

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We have the right to push Iraq around because they were violating all of their treaties, including their surrender agreement with us.

Ah, it's bad to be friendly with other countries like England—but earlier you said that the world hates us because of Bush. What are we supposed to do?

As I posted somewhere else, Saddam was required by the U.N. resolution to prove that he had destroyed the weapons. The burden of proof was on him, not Bush.

Obviously, countries with important resources like Iraq need to be monitored. And, at the time, he was violating every treaty (whoa, just like Hitler!) and nobody was doing anything. On the other hand, we don't have all of these "surrender treaties" with Zimbabwe, and honestly our Administration hardly cares, except to give money for AIDS.

So don't vote for Blair again.

-cybergnu

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The cops took down my resumé, but I'm working on getting a Geocities page.

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That is utterly wrong. Eight years of Bill Clinton taught the world that when you piss off America, you get a few cruise missiles fired at a baby food factory, and then everybody forgets about it. Terrorists learned that America wasn't willing to actually put a stop to terrorism, if it meant taking some risks. Clinton's presidency was only good in one sense, and that's because as he didn't actually do anything about anything, he never had the oppportunity to **** up the economy.

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I'll kill you.
[url="http://"http://taoistmonksquirrel.blogspot.com/"]My life[/url]
Tout que je voudrais est vivre la vie que j'aime.

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Hopefully, the fact that Bush is serious about what he says will convince other rogue states such as Iran and North Korea that the United States has the ability (and the will) to use the world's most powerful military against them, and they'll think twice about pissing us off. And if they still don't get it, then tough - they should understand the concept by now, and if it's what we need to do, then we'll do it.

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You're right, Clinton's presidency covered a period of time where he didn't have to do much to look good.

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I'll kill you.
[url="http://"http://taoistmonksquirrel.blogspot.com/"]My life[/url]
Tout que je voudrais est vivre la vie que j'aime.

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Bush did, and he took full advantage of that opportunity!

The world did like Clinton. They like him ? more then Bush. Bush ignored the world.

????? hehe I can make the Apple symbol!

EDIT: Darn. They show up as questoin marks. It is "option shift k" if anyone is interested

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my [url="http://"http://home.ptd.net/~hart1"]Home Page.[/url] Now with a link farm, picture gallery, section on Australia, and golf.

[This message has been edited by Trah (edited 07-05-2003).]

Speaking as part of "the world", we thought Clinton was OK. Bush, on the other hand, is either hated, feared or considered unbelievably stupid.

Well, that's the prevailing attitude in Australia, at least. And the recent BBC special on the world found Australia was one of the friendlier nations.

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Sundered Angel,
The One and Only
Ares Webboard Moderator, and all-around Nice Guy

[quote]Originally posted by Trah:
Bush did, and he took full advantage of that opportunity![/quote]

<Shrug>. It's not as bad as it could be. We're still an economically powerful nation, and things will get better - they always do.

[quote]Originally posted by Trah:
The world did like Clinton. They like him ? more then Bush. Bush ignored the world.[/quote]

It doesn't matter who likes our president outside of the United States, it matters who respects him. Bush commands a lot more respect than Clinton ever did because he is willing to actually do what he says he's going to.[/B][/QUOTE]


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I'll kill you.
[url="http://"http://taoistmonksquirrel.blogspot.com/"]My life[/url]
Tout que je voudrais est vivre la vie que j'aime.

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In fact, some people had so much respect for him that they hijacked two airplanes and crashed them into large buildings.

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dude3 -- he'd rather go to Viet Nam
Quote of the Week- "All you robots want to know why my wife ate Drano? I'll tell you why: She was that kind of robot!" -Dwayne Hoover
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I won't waste my time arguing over something that both of us know isn't true, no matter how clever it may seem.

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I'll kill you.
[url="http://"http://taoistmonksquirrel.blogspot.com/"]My life[/url]
Tout que je voudrais est vivre la vie que j'aime.

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It gets better when Democrats take power!

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Bush has no respect. He is a thought of as a mumbling monkey from Texas. That is not a joke. It is also true.

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my [url="http://"http://home.ptd.net/~hart1"]Home Page.[/url] Now with a link farm, picture gallery, section on Australia, and golf.

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That makes two of us.

I realize that logic is hard to swallow, but you really should try to use a bit of reason in your statements.

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dude3 -- he'd rather go to Viet Nam
Quote of the Week- "All you robots want to know why my wife ate Drano? I'll tell you why: She was that kind of robot!" -Dwayne Hoover
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[This message has been edited by dude3 (edited 07-05-2003).]

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I don't profess to understand economics, but I've found that it doesn't matter who's in charge, someone always ****s the economy up.

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Ah, no, respect in a different sense. If he says he's going to do something, you better believe that he'll do it. Bush is a cowboy, and I personally think that's what we need right now.

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I'll kill you.
[url="http://"http://taoistmonksquirrel.blogspot.com/"]My life[/url]
Tout que je voudrais est vivre la vie que j'aime.

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*sigh*

World Trade Center bombing - February, 1993, Clinton in office
2 US Diplomats Asassinated in Pakistan - March, 1995, Clinton in office
7 killed in bombing at US Military Headquarters in Saudi Arabia - November, 1995, Clinton in office
Khobar Towers bombing - June, 1996, Clinton in office
Embassy bombings - August, 1998, Clinton in office
USS Cole bombing - October, 2000, Clinton in office

This is not, of course, to say that Clinton is at fault for these attacks, though I'm inclined to believe that his inaction (along with the inaction of several former presidents) contributed to continuing attacks.

My point is that the attacks on September 11, 2001, were directed at the United States of America (as terrorist attacks against the United States have been for over two decades), and were not a reaction to our president. So, next time you decided to use "logic", please make sure that you look at things... logically.

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I'll kill you.
[url="http://"http://taoistmonksquirrel.blogspot.com/"]My life[/url]
Tout que je voudrais est vivre la vie que j'aime.

The Bush administration has über bad foreign policy. Clinton's admistration was much better. The election of Bush didn't help our chance of avoiding 9/11.

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my [url="http://"http://home.ptd.net/~hart1"]Home Page.[/url] Now with a link farm, picture gallery, section on Australia, and golf.