Ambrosia Software Web Board: Say Hello To the Next U.S. President! - Ambrosia Software Web Board

[url="http://"http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/03/02/elec04.prez.main/index.html"] [/url]

Woo!

(I'm taking a massive chance with my ubb... You can click on the picture.)
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[This message has been edited by Trah (edited 03-03-2004).]

[This message has been edited by Trah (edited 03-04-2004).]

I sure as hell hope so...

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ATTs Official Newb, And Znorty's official Sidekick. "All hail fearless leader." [url="http://"mailto:lotsofblackflags@yahoo.com"]mailto:lotsofblackflags@yahoo.com[/url]lotsofblackflags@yahoo.com

Once again the arrogance and ignorance of the Democratic/Liberalist party is shown......

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I don't get mad; I get stabby.

I'm voting for Bush and will involve myself in campaigns against Kerry. Oh yeah, have a nice day!

-Pufer

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"You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline. It helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a beer."
-Frank Zappa

I'm hoping a mysterious firestorm will come and wipe out both of them, so we can give a decent canidate a chance.

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Kommissar of the Nickonian New Comintern
"Its all fun and games until a rampaging robot destroys half of your city."

I know what you mean, Av. No one notices me.

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Official Sidekick: lotsofblackflags
Me: "That's what I'm gonna name my kid. Gloreglabert Zhaschflatishey."
SA: "How about Eimlokkindisttopicnow?"

Yeah, but that's probably because you being a 35+ year old male was our second guess. The first being a five-year-old.

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Kommissar of the Nickonian New Comintern
"Its all fun and games until a rampaging robot destroys half of your city."

I just can't figure out his stances on anything...

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Being very leftist I'm still not sure I like the face of Kerry, I normally read people how they are out of how they look if they are kind friendly and such, but he does not look friendly or kind just angry, at least bush looks rather friendly.
I'd go for Al Gore anyday, but if I could vote vote for bush just for the hell of it.

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Arhhhhhhg Replied
Arthur.
www.avalon-rpg.com
A great Place come by.

If I could vote, I'd vote Bush. But only because Pufer is, and I trust his judgement.

Why worry...I'm 15.

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The greatest thing, you'll ever learn, is just to love, and be loved in return

Why, thank you.

My reasoning: Kerry has a questionable voting record on many vital issues with few exceptions. He has demonstrated no strong opinions on vital issues during his campaign, choosing rather to attack our current president's actions, which doesn't speak well about about him being a strong candidate. He has been very hard on our constitutional freedoms over the years. I believe that he is hypocritically using his military background in order to advance his position with vets, even though he had repeatedly attacked the military and Vietnam Vets specifically while on his Communist crusade with Jane Fonda during the Vietnam War (there are few groups that Vietnam Vets dislike more than those who organized groups to ambush returning soldiers, regardless of their rank or position, both physically and verbally ("baby-killers"), Kerry was at the forefront of one of these groups and this has yet to get mainstream attention). He has, and this goes to what Carinae has said, recieved the reputation of being a vindictive SOB if he doesn't agree with your criticism, and I believe that it shows. Plus he's a Massachutsetts Senator, and that's never been good.

Bush really hasn't done a phenomenal job, but remains a farily solid President historically. He's presided over a national disaster, a recession that had nothing to do with his fiscal policy, a relatively quick recovery from said recession, and two very minor wars, but has racked up the national debt and trampled some freedoms while doing so. Overall I'd say that he's done a fully OK job as President.

So it comes down to individual issues:
Millitary: Even though it's a strange thing to say, Kerry just doesn't like it. Funding will be cut and our position in the world will be compromised once again. Bush will keep it going. Edge: Bush.
Taxes: I like tax cuts, but there isn't much good to be found in a huge national debt. Edge: Tie.
Freedoms: There isn't anything good that can be said about Kerry in this area, he's an anti-gun authoritarian. Bush is just giving the establishment too much unchecked power. Edge: Bush by a sliver.
Experience: Kerry has been involved in the game for a while, but Bush already has the job and an established cabinet. Edge: Bush by just a bit.
Foreign Affairs: Bush hasn't made us any friends, but all signs point to Kerry wanting to be a pawn to the UN and the international community (this is really a judgement call, both sides have their benefits but I'm an isolationist). Edge: Bush.
Domestic Affairs: Bush has avoided numerous major domestic issues while Kerry usually has done well for his constituants. Edge: Kerry by a little bit.
Iraq: If you want someone to really **** up a war, give control to a Democrat. Bush has been pretty decisive up to this point and I see no reason why he won't continue on (and, as long as we're at it, we ought to screw OPEC up in the process, something that Kerry won't do). Edge: Bush by quite a lot.

Who should get my vote? Zell Miller. But since he's not running, Bush beats Kerry five to one on the issues so Bush will get my vote.

Like Pikeman said in the Just Chat topic on this subject, "It's a shame when voting for a President is reduced to deciding between the lesser of two evils."

-Pufer

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"You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline. It helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a beer."
-Frank Zappa

Pufer, you took the post right out of my keyboard. Well, with the exception that I dislike both of them equally.

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Military: would cutting back on some of the stuff Kerry proposed really hurt? I recall somewhere that Kerry was going to cut out of the military budget some of the weapons/designs that are either horribly obsolete or that we already have thousands of, or that are not going to be of any real use in the future.

Tax cuts: I'd side with whomever is against more tax cuts, they're only hurting our government's debt - and its showing in the federal funds allotted to education and other services.

Freedoms: I'd say Bush is trying to limit some of our freedoms. Isn't he pressing for several bills that would prohibit some people from doing certain activities? For example Bush is anti-abortion (he has strongly stated such) and is trying to create an amendment to the consitution prohibiting gay marriages. Both of those, if successful, would limit freedom.

Foreign Affairs: As you said, its sort of a toss-up. I do think we should repair at least some of our relations with other countries. Just because we want to be somewhat isolationist doesn't mean we need to repeatedly piss off and slap other countries in the face, we're on weak terms as it is. Perhaps it'd be beneficial to slow down our deterioration with other countries, so we retain some friends in the world. A lot of people really don't like us. (as for isolationism, why are we still supporting Israel? Is that a religious thing? It ties up our government in a 'holy war' and is another pressure point with the world, and usually it just causes more trouble for us.)

Domestic Affairs: This is where I'm currently stuck. I think Kerry has some really good ideas for domestic policies, but I also am strongly against half of his ideas.

Iraq: However its going now seems to be fine - but why aren't we creating two seperate nations for some of the tribes? There are three, the exact names escape me at the moment, but two of them have similar ideologies, and the third is different in the way they do stuff - its more western, a more open society, especially regarding the status of women. (is it the Kurds?) Forcing them into the same country as the Shiites and other closed-society Muslims is just asking for trouble, possibly the Israel/Palestine conflict of the late 21st century. I don't think either president is for that idea though.

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Kommissar of the Nickonian New Comintern
"Its all fun and games until a rampaging robot destroys half of your city."

Well, I'm glad the majority of you have proven wise. Kerry is an asshat, thats all there is to it. Bush, having made a few bad choices in his reign, I still beleive would be a better leader than that skidmark-in-my-underware Kerry. Thank you all for letting me beleive that the Republican/Conservative party still has a chance in this world. And I would vote for Zell as well, he's better than most Republicans and he's a Democrat! Maybe its because he's a Baptist Christian....

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I don't get mad; I get stabby.

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I'll have to do some research myself. But That would be a stance I totally support-decrease military spending by increasing efficiencey and still maintain a potent presence in the world.

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"Tax cuts" is in this case little more than election PR rhetoric... I hope...

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*Refrains from opening up a massive can of worms*

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Let's face it: The world is a global community. Now with our economic infrastructure built on a global scale we have two ways of continued growth (or even maintaining) of our position in this environment: Cooperate or dominate. Bush has chosen the latter, while Kerry whafts in the breeze of the former. Unfortunately for the best results we need a healthy and clever mix of both.

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It's quite clear where Bush stands and what his track record is for this one; this is where he has been by far the most conservative, cutting back on just about everything on the table. And I'm not sure about Kerry. What I can deduce at the moment is that he really talks big about domestic affairs, but if elected I doubt we'd see and real change in anything domestic as a direct result of his action-I more likely he won't make any real efforts on the domestic front.

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Iraq is a bloody mess, and Bush isn't doing much more than a pricey and ill-managed occupation. Unfortunately, both Bush and Kerry would mismanage this in the future. Both would spend far too much of our bedget on it (Bush on military occupation, Kerry on "humanitarian" efforts more to impress the UN than acutally fix anything).


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I think that there are certainly some major money wasters in the military today that need to be addressed, but I fear that Kerry would go too far in his cuts. A bloated military is preferable to an underequipped one in my mind.

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Bush has done a good job on Educational funding though. I don't really care for some of the projects that he's spending it on, but as my mother (a school administrator) says, "Any little bit helps in today's school system." As to the debt situation, I'm a big believer in Reganomics, you need to spend a little to get a lot from your economy (but I do see where there is a problem right now).

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In that section I'm really just comparing him with Kerry. Bush isn't a shining beacon for wholesale guarantees of basic freedoms, but Kerry has traditionally voted against the Bill of Rights. There is just more against Kerry than Bush.

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I've never liked our stance on Israel. I'm certainly not a big fan of the Palestinians, but the UN (with us and the UK at the lead) really did screw them over. As to the holy war aspect, the Islamic world doesn't have all that much support for the Palestinians, mainly because they've never really been shining beacons for the faith (plus around half of the Palestinian population worldwide is Christian). We definately shouldn't use Israel as a reason for attacking Syria or Jordan though, that would definitely not make us any points.

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The Kurds were, essentially, the lower class of workers in the Ottoman Empire who basically were freed and placed in northern Iraq by the British back when they were in control of the area. As such, Turkey (what's left of the Ottomans) has always resented them being stolen away from their society and would invade in a second if they were given their own state. The Muslims couldn't give less of a damn about them, they are just filler for otherwise worthless land (which is why Saddam could beat up on them so easily) so long as they don't get to vote.

The Shiite and Sunni sects of Islam really have to be put toghether in one country for one simple reason: Oil. No matter how you tried to cut up Iraq, you'd either be screwing someone out of the largest oil reserves, or coastline transport, or a little of both, and bloody territorial fighting would be inevitable. The Shiites and the Sunni are simply two forms of Islam and are going through the same problems that faced Protestants and Catholics back in the day. It is definitely possible for them to work toghether so long as petty religious differences aren't brought up.

-Pufer

edit: forgot an "end-bold" tag.
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"You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline. It helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a beer."
-Frank Zappa

[This message has been edited by Pufer (edited 03-03-2004).]

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wtf mate?

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Some would argue a large military isn't a good thing.

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The tax cuts are short-sited pieces of junk. I don't want a trillion dollar debt.

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Come on man, two words: Patriot Act. Bush gets slaughtered by Kerry in freedoms. You would rather have a useless gun then real freedom?

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They are even on experience, Bush has had the job, Kerry has been in Washington politics for 30 years.

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That is just wrong. Bush not only hasn't made friends, he has lost every single ally of the U.S. Maybe the leaders of some countries support him, but the general population sure doesn't. Kerry's foreign policy is vastly superior.

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indeed.

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His reasons for the war were wrong. He should have just said he was liberating an oppressed people rather then saying how Iraq was an imminent threat. Bush does have the edge in public opinion, but he doesn't have the edge in effectiveness.


And one major reason why Bush shouldn't be re-elected: constitutional ban of gay marriage. Any one who would even consider amending the constitution to make second-class citizens is a deeply flawed person.

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My [url="http://"http://home.ptd.net/~hart1"]Home Page.[/url] Now with a link farm, picture gallery, Australia section, golf log, and IRC tutorial.

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Dude, don't post insults post information. I mean, what good would it do if we all just said "X person Sucks!"? Posting things like that shows "ignorance and arrogance" as you so nicely put it. Religion + Politics= üngood

and sorry for the double post.

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Ok ok, new picture.


I will point out how the two non-Americans here are liberal, and anti-Bush. (I am assuming that is Carinae's position)

Anyway, this is almost too early to start talking about the election, it being 8 months away. I would wait a while to see how things develop. I know some people already have their minds made up, but for the "swing" people, it is too early to choose.
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My [url="http://"http://home.ptd.net/~hart1"]Home Page.[/url] Now with a link farm, picture gallery, Australia section, golf log, and IRC tutorial.



[This message has been edited by Trah (edited 03-04-2004).]

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The Patriot Act does expire in 2005, unless it gets renewed by Congress; but it was/is a serious limitation on some freedoms (and it has been abused in multiple cases). Bush loses some points in allowing that Act to pass, despite the catastrophe that led to its creation.

And Shinobi, if you're voting for Zell because he's a Christian; just about every president we've had has been a Christian. Bush has made it clear he is one, going as far to saying America is "God's Country" and "God is on our side." Also, why do you think he's against gay-marriage? His reasoning included something along the line of "God doesn't like it." So much for the seperation of church and state.

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Kommissar of the Nickonian New Comintern
"Its all fun and games until a rampaging robot destroys half of your city."

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Certainly, and I would agree with them, but numerous signs point to Kerry taking it too far and weakening our military in areas that shouldn't be compromised. Between the two I'd prefer too much protection over not enough.

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Their affect on the economy can be measured, but the depression of the dollar due to the debt has offset any gains in the global economy. I stand by the candidates being even in purely economical terms.

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The Patriot act will not make it through congress without drastic amendments when it expires pretty soon, if it gets though at all. The problem will probably solve itself. Also, my gun guarantees my freedom, but lets not get into a gun control debate here.

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Being in Washington for thirty years doesn't mean that you will be a good administrator, traditionally Congressional newcomers (relatively) and Governors have made better Presidents.

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Alliances aren't built with the populations of other countries, and, to the best of my knowledge, no alliances have been broken due to recent foreign policy. They also aren't dependant on being friendly.

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It doesn't matter what happened in the past, what's done is done (sounds a little bit like what all you liberals were saying about Clinton's scandals, doesn't it ), we need to focus on who'll be the stronger leader through the aftermath.

-Pufer


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"You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline. It helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a beer."
-Frank Zappa

[This message has been edited by Pufer (edited 03-04-2004).]

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As the "modern" age progresses, we don't find as many battlefields as we do covert strikes (ie terrorist attacks). Most battles that the US gets involved in are fights we charged into headfirst (Afghanistan is an arguable exception due to them attacking us first). Maybe we could take that military budget and use some of it at least, to come up with an effective anti terrorist policy (and I don't mean more airline-security, patriot act lunacy)

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Sometimes tax cuts do offset the economy and take it out of recession, but we are thinking about here and now, totally ignoring the future. I don't want to be paying off a trillion dollars with massive taxes when I'm an adult. This is more, traditional American shortsightedness.

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Yup. Your gun will be really useful if Canada or Mexico invades, until that time, all of you gun crazy, conservative, Freedom fryer, oil yahoo's can just leave it to the army.

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Well, I really can't argue with that.

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No intelligent leader will toss his people into a war if it is going to cost him his career. Can't get reelected without the general population behind you.

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Clinton Scandals had nothing to do with the fate of the country, what bush has done does. Bush has done a really lousy job, and should be never allowed near politics again for it.

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Pissing off the whole planet. One person at a time.
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If you sell me your soul, I'll use it to ressurect Atilla the Hun.
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What are you going to do, take on the police, the national guard, and the army, with your one gun? That hasn't helped rebels in various countries all over the world in the past with very few exceptions.

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Kommissar of the Nickonian New Comintern
"Its all fun and games until a rampaging robot destroys half of your city."

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Although I tend to be liberal in my views, gun control is one area where I must stand by Pufer. I believe that we have the right to protect ourselves through any means we see necesarry.
Before you all start jumping on me, let me clarify 2 points:
1. I do not own a gun, nor would I ever paticularly want to own a gun. For me, its more an issue of having the freedon/option to own a gun if one should wish to.
2. When I say "protect ourselves through any means we see neccessarry", there are some clarifications on that. I do not mean, for example, that it would be acceptable to deem that in order to protect yourself, your neighbors must die. I mean protect yourself from an immediate, visible, threat-for example, if your neighbor is naked in your house with a machete and has just killed your wife and is starting towards you, then its acceptable to decide that he must die to protect yourself and kill him.

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I'm not against gun control at this time. Its like homosexual marriage - I don't engage in it (neither do I own a gun), but that doesn't mean we should forbid the option of it. I'm just wondering how having a gun is going to protect your freedoms from an administration that clamps down on your basic rights.

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Kommissar of the Nickonian New Comintern
"Its all fun and games until a rampaging robot destroys half of your city."

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The most notable exception, of course, being the rebellion that founded our nation. Me and my one (and by "one" I mean seven) guns won't be able to do anything of significance, but a lot of armed people united in a group can certainly make a difference. This was exactly what the founding fathers had in mind when giving us the right to keep and bear arms.

-Pufer

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"You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline. It helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a beer."
-Frank Zappa