Boring Cythera Experiments

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Boring Cythera Experiments

#26 Pallas Athene

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 02:06 AM

Assuming it's on a 24-day cycle, everything should repeat every 24th day. I think we should have full moons peaking at midnight on days 24, 48, 72, ..., 216, and 240.

255 % 24 is 15, so we expect day 255 to behave the same as day 15. (% means divide and get the remainder)

#27 BreadWorldMercy453

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 07:45 AM

Well, it was 8am on Day 15 and 9am on Day 255.

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#28 Pallas Athene

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 08:07 AM

Hmm. Now that I think of it, the phases and the moonrise times *should* be proceeding at different rates, because the planet is going around the sun. And maybe the rate at which they diverge would give us the length of a year. However, if I'm thinking of that right, then if 255 days means moonrise gets an hour later, then that makes the year 24*255=6120 days long, which is way too long even if we didn't already know the year was supposed to be shorter.

My head hurts (unrelatedly) so I'm not going to think about this any further for the moment.

#29 Selax

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 01:36 PM

Regarding year length, 255 days might just be the result of how Cythera's counting system works; however, since items such as oboloi can be made to exceed 255 days, gandreas might also have intended this to be the length of a year. The game starts on Day 1; however, the loop starts on Day 0 which may be a bug or may indicate that gandreas only included the day for usage in the journal and never intended for users to take more than 255 days. If I understand 453 correctly, this extra day makes the game year 256 days (after the first loop) rather than the 255 days seen in the first year. Depending on how she took her data, this might impact her results

When the days wrap around, what happens to the moons? Do they reset to their Day 1 position or continue on the 24 day cycle?

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#30 BreadWorldMercy453

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 03:13 PM

The moons continue on. (On the first Day 1, Makros is a full or waning gibbous moon. On the second Day 1, it's a first quarter.) There was no indication that I noticed that a year had passed, or that seasons changed. As far as I know, the only way to change the season in the game is to use Magpie's Pumpkin Patch.

A lot of things in the game are numbered 0-255. To find those with Pandora's Box, I search for the value under "byte." Oboloi is different, it's found under "short." The oboloi limit is 32,767. I remember the first time I came across that, I was devastated to find the 33ish thousand oboloi that I'd worked so hard for had disappeared :( I hope this doesn't mean that a lunar "year" is 32,767 days... Or worse, 65535 :( I wish I could use Pandora's Box to try to artificially speed up the moon cycle, but since I'm running Classic I can only use the unregistered version :\ I guess I could always have another go at HexEdit, but I really don't know what I'm doing with that program.

Fiery- I hope your head feels better!

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#31 Avatara

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Posted 10 November 2014 - 02:34 AM

Pallas Athene, on 07 November 2014 - 11:10 PM, said:

Yes, it's supposed to illustrate the current positions of everything. I fixed it for Safari (hopefully for your version).
http://sfiera.net/~sfiera/selenes.html
The parameters are maybe pretty close to correct now. We have both moons high in the sky on day 6, around 5:30.

You know, I think it's a little funny that the two remaining active boards are the EV boards and the Cythera boards and *we're* the ones discussing astrophysics.

Minor request: can you make it so that moving the date slider doesn't also move the time slider? Would make it easier to compare where the moons are on a day-to-day basis.

"Sometimes I get confused whether I'm posting on ATT or in the War Room. But then I remind myself: If it's moderators acting scatter-brained and foolish, then it's the War Room*.

*Unless it's Avatara, of course."
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#32 Pallas Athene

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Posted 10 November 2014 - 09:32 AM

Avatara, on 10 November 2014 - 02:34 AM, said:

Minor request: can you make it so that moving the date slider doesn't also move the time slider? Would make it easier to compare where the moons are on a day-to-day basis.

OK. Originally I had it that way, but linked them so it was easier to scan through time. Then I added animation, which is better for that anyway.

#33 Pallas Athene

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Posted 11 November 2014 - 08:22 AM

Switched it to do calculations over sidereal time (Hopefully all of the equations are correct). This way, we can account for moonrise and phase times diverging, but I haven't played around with it yet. Currently it assumes a 365.25-day year, which we already know probably isn't right.

#34 BreadWorldMercy453

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Posted 12 November 2014 - 03:50 PM

I have no idea what that means, but cool! ^_^

I had started a spreadsheet on trying to get more exact "peak" times for the moons, but I didn't get very far. Now it's so cold that I don't want to hang out in the (unheated) guest room to play Cythera :\ Anyway, as Wizzy figured out a while back, the time-pane thingy changes 4 times an hour. So in order to make it easier for me to keep track of, I decided that when you "estimate time" and decide it's "about noon" that means sometime between 12:00pm and 12:59pm. I know that doesn't sound sensible, but I was having enough trouble keeping track of exactly what time it was, and it seemed easier this way. I still ended up estimating a lot because some "peaks" seemed to happen between two fifteen-minute views.

Also, I've been sleeping in the ruffian encampment for the moon times. I doubt anyone cares, but originally I said it takes three hours for Makros to rise and three hours to set, but that was in Cademia where the buildings blocked the horizon. In the ruffian encampment, despite the fact that it's nestled in the mountains, you've got a pretty unobstructed view. Only a couple of trees that kept getting on my nerves.

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#35 Selax

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 03:31 PM

Have you been able to determine when the difference between your expected result and your observed result occurs? That is, is there a particular day at which the difference becomes noticeable?

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#36 BreadWorldMercy453

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 05:06 PM

Sorry, I haven't even been up in the guest room in at least a week.

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#37 BreadWorldMercy453

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Posted 17 March 2015 - 04:01 PM

It's easier than ever to play Cythera on my awesome new computer with Basilisk! (Thanks Bryce! <3) So I'm back to my experiments. By the way, through conversations with Ferazel and Bryce, I've discovered that you can mage lock trapdoors, and that you can't kill yourself with Mage's Friend potions. I just love discovering new things about this game :D

Anyway, here's my NPCs' daily schedules list. It's not perfect, I'm sure I've gotten some details wrong, it's just hard to keep track of everything. But it's pretty close, anyway. I didn't bother with most of the NPCs that just do the same thing all day long (Prusa, Jhiaxus, etc.). Also, on my list, the activities actually go through the hours listed. For example, If I say someone sits around in the bar from 6-9pm, I actually mean they sit around in the bar until 10pm, when they go on to the next thing. This list is pretty long, so I'll use spoiler tags.

LandKing Hall:

Spoiler

Odemia:

Spoiler

Catamarca:

Spoiler

Cademia:

Spoiler

Kosha:

Spoiler

Pnyx:

Spoiler

Ayrit:

Spoiler

Flax Farm:

Spoiler

Iron Mine:

Spoiler

Miscellaneous:

Spoiler

This post has been edited by BreadWorldMercy453: 20 March 2015 - 04:07 PM

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#38 BreadWorldMercy453

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Posted 18 March 2015 - 12:34 PM

I also experimented with Haggling a little more. I think it does influence your success in haggling down the price, but there's still a "random" factor, so it's hard to be sure. It might be as useful as getting a vendor's price down to the minimum in, on average, half the haggles as it would take if you didn't have the skill. As far as I can tell, it doesn't decrease the likelihood that a vender will be offended.

Edit: In my opinion, it's not really worth the training point, just to save a little money. Training points are limited, but you can always earn more money. Of course, the easiest way to earn money (without hacking) is to haggle Atreus so that he's willing to pay more for diamonds, but it's still possible to do that without the Haggling skill - it just takes more patience.

This post has been edited by BreadWorldMercy453: 18 March 2015 - 12:36 PM

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#39 BreadWorldMercy453

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Posted 20 March 2015 - 08:57 AM

Presently I'm working on revising the dialogue files so that they're as complete as possible ^_^ On the side, I'm working on making a list of the bugs in Cythera (that's going to be one long list, I tell you). Maybe later I'll make a new thread for the bug list so that others can contribute?

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#40 Selax

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Posted 22 March 2015 - 06:34 PM

I'll try to bug Wizard about adding the updated dialogue and the NPC schedules, but I wouldn't get my hopes up for him to do so soon.

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#41 BreadWorldMercy453

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Posted 22 March 2015 - 08:45 PM

I have not updated the dialogue files yet. I'm still working on it ^_^ There's a lot of small things that I didn't post on the Dialogical Scheming topic because they weren't very interesting, but I'm having so much fun revising everything! ^_^

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#42 BreadWorldMercy453

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Posted 10 April 2015 - 05:22 PM

I haven't gotten around to working on the dialogue revisions lately, a lot of what I have left to do on it will take more effort to check. Today, I decided to check the "bad karma" responses for Alaric, Sabinate, Unhayt, Uset, & Seqedher. I can confirm that the the Ayrit Seldane refuse to talk to you if your karma is too bad, and that Alaric will refuse to heal you if your karma is too bad; but I also learned something about karma that I don't really want to disclose because I'm afraid Sely will never let me hear the end of it.

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#43 Selax

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Posted 12 April 2015 - 05:04 PM

BreadWorldMercy453, on 10 April 2015 - 05:22 PM, said:

...but I also learned something about karma that I don't really want to disclose because I'm afraid Sely will never let me hear the end of it.

You do realize that I am now going to have coerce you into telling me what you found?

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#44 BreadWorldMercy453

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Posted 12 April 2015 - 08:35 PM

Oh all right, if you post a new Chronicle or a OoR post or a GM story, I will tell you what I discovered about karma.

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#45 Selax

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Posted 19 April 2015 - 04:16 PM

Or I could just start editing all of your posts to proclaim your support for wiki

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#46 BreadWorldMercy453

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Posted 19 April 2015 - 06:40 PM

Thanks for posting in OoR, Sely ^_^

I got sidetracked from the dialogue revising, experimenting with karma. Here's what I figured out:
Karma ranges from 0 to 100. You can estimate your karma by seeing what color your name is in dialogue boxes (various shades of grey, with 0 being black and 100 being white).

You start the game with a karma level of 55. If your karma drops to 50 or below, Alaric will not heal you, claiming your soul is too stained to cleanse. If your karma is below 40, Sabinate, Unhayt, Uset, and Seqedher will refuse to speak to you.

Here's my list of things that affect your karma:
Stealing an item (if the deeds stain your soul): -1
Killing Magpie: -10
Killing someone with the appearance of the hero/heroine: -10
Killing any other person (unless he's a ruffian): +1
Killing a flying bird: +1
Killing a ruffian: +4
Killing a golem, polyp, hydra, tentacle, Scylla-head, demon, skeleton, undead, or lich: +4
Giving oboloi to drunken beggars: +1 per 10 oboloi given at a time (so giving 20 would be +2, etc).
Rescuing Ariadne: +10
Curing the plague: +10
Freeing Maayti: +10
Putting flowers on Andra's grave: +5
Finding Thersites' ring: +5
Taking Stentor's net to him: +5

As far as I can tell, there's no way to raise your karma above 100 without hacking. Killing a person/creature has the same effect regardless of whether you use physical combat, magic, or explosives. It was difficult for me to isolate the karma value in Pandora's Box because I expected my karma to decrease when killing NPCs. When I discovered that killing people is good, I was shocked and had a bit of a moral crisis. I determined to keep this a secret from Sely because I couldn't stand the thought of listening to him gloat about what an upright and moral person he is for bombing the Magisterium & slaughtering entire cities. But on reflection, getting Sely to move OoR forward is more important.

Also, here's my list of things I tried that had no effect on my karma:
Killing any kind of wild animal except for the ones listed above.
Killing goats or chickens, even when the NPCs get mad & attack you.
Completing any to-do list task except for the six listed above.
A follower killing anyone/anything, even if you've specifically directed them to do so.
Stealing something if the deeds don't stain your soul (taking food, moving an item before taking it, training in Thievery, etc.)
Sleeping in somebody else's bed.
Dying.
Snatching Emesa's flatbread off of the stove & eating it before she can take it back.
Taking the deep-sea kelp out of Glaucus' must vat.
Refusing to pay Aethon's bar tabs.
Joining the Ratcatchers' Guild, and training in their shady skills.
Gambling, even if you've trained in Gambling.
Giving 9 oboloi or less to Eumelus or Ennomus.
Nutrienting hungry NPCs.
Drinking.
Breaking other people's mirrors, crates, or chests.
Accusing the Comana brothers of lying, whether or not you caught them with Ascertainment.
Cussing.
Buying things from NPCs.
Offending merchants by haggling too much.
Littering.
Re-uniting Philinus & Tlepolemus.
Being a messenger for Hebe, Antenor, and Crito.
Listening to Neoptolemus' boring story, learning his skills.
Shaking down an NPC, taking their stuff.
Putting together the Crolna.
Neutralizing the Crolna.
Lying to NPCs (there's not a whole lot of opportunity to do this, but I tried: telling Emesa I was hungry when I wasn't, telling Anisa I'd learned about Alaric's mother when I hadn't, telling Sacas I'd learned something useful from Antiphus when I hadn't, telling Hebe I had flax to sell when I didn't, telling Apis I'd negotiated her wine contract, telling Neoptolemus that Alaric told me his name, and telling Jhiaxus that I'd honored Jinrai when I hadn't).

I'm now out of ideas for karma experiments. If anyone else has an idea, please let me know so I can try it! ^_^

The Cythera Documentation (which isn't all that accurate) says this about karma:
"Karma is a direct reflection of your acts. If you lie, cheat, steal, or attack the innocent, your Karma will darken. Doing the inverse will cause your Karma to lighten. If your Karma is too dark, some characters may not want to deal with you."
Lying and cheating didn't seem to have any effect, and attacking the innocent lightened my karma. So I don't know what else to try.

Well, there are some kinds of "monsters" that aren't possible to kill in the game (LandKing, FireSprite, Ghost, Seldane (noble), & Sylph), so I couldn't test how killing them would affect your karma. I wonder if there's some way to hack the game to remove their immortality so that you can kill them?

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#47 Selax

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Posted 26 April 2015 - 09:06 PM

BreadWorldMercy453, on 19 April 2015 - 06:40 PM, said:

As far as I can tell, there's no way to raise your karma above 100 without hacking. Killing a person/creature has the same effect regardless of whether you use physical combat, magic, or explosives. It was difficult for me to isolate the karma value in Pandora's Box because I expected my karma to decrease when killing NPCs. When I discovered that killing people is good, I was shocked and had a bit of a moral crisis. I determined to keep this a secret from Sely because I couldn't stand the thought of listening to him gloat about what an upright and moral person he is for bombing the Magisterium & slaughtering entire cities. But on reflection, getting Sely to move OoR forward is more important.

Actually, that explains a lot about Cythera.

Mankind has been on this small island for several centuries but the population is still so small. Clearly, at some point in the past, there was an overpopulation crisis which Alaric solved by making it good karma to kill people. Hence, when you kill someone, NPCs aren't upset that you killed someone but rather that you took their chance to improve their karma. This also explains why there are so few children in Cythera and why most of them hide in sewers or around haystacks.

Also, moral crisis? Come to the Dark Side! Slaughter the NPCs

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#48 BreadWorldMercy453

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Posted 27 April 2015 - 06:27 AM

But the NPCs do get upset! & try to kill you! Even though they're unarmed & all they can do is miss you repeatedly.

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#49 Selax

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Posted 09 May 2015 - 05:02 PM

I didn't say they didn't get upset: I said they didn't get upset because you killed someone. Rather, they're upset you took their chance to improve their karma.

It would make an interesting idea for a chron...growing up in a Cythera where everyone is out to kill each other to improve their reputation.

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#50 The Wizard

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Posted 19 June 2015 - 02:11 PM

BW, this topic is filled with a lot of useful information. I used some of it to make a few new pages on the website, which I'll discuss shortly in a new topic.

Pallas, that moon simulator is great! I am constantly amazed by your varied knowledge on all these subjects.