Ambrosia Software Web Board: Sapphire Book of Foundation - Ambrosia Software Web Board

Quote from Anisa: "The Sapphire Book of Foundation is the strangest story of them all. It is said to have been traded to some sort of Earth Spirit in return for knowledge of some sort nearly 750 years ago."

Nearly 750 years ago = ~170

Who here thinks it was Alaric's mom? :D

The Earth Spirit would be Unhayt, so that would mean that Alaric's mom had contact with the Seldane, which I suppose is totally possible since she was married to a half-seldane. Interesting theory, I’m also curious as to what knowledge the Seldane picked up from the trade.

I had assumed that Chrysothemis was totally in the dark about elementals, as Alaric seems to be. But now I like this theory better. Maybe Chrysothemis met the Seldane before ever meeting Magpie, and that's what drew him to her. Chronicle, anyone? Write it in the next three days, and you could enter Valy's challenge! Hurry, act now!

I think that Alaric did at one time know Magpie as his father, and Magpie (or possibly Chrysothemis, if she was a magess?) somehow erased those memories. That's why Alaric has a hard time remembering his own history.

My only other idea of a candidate for who traded the book to the Seldane, is Neleneus. You know, prophecy guy. Maybe he lived about that time?

Anyone have any other ideas?

This post has been edited by BreadWorldMercy453: 20 March 2011 - 04:45 PM

Wait Magpie and Alaric are brosephs?

Two Jacks, on 25 February 2011 - 02:25 PM, said:

No, Magpie is Alaric’s dad. Don't bring Oedipal complexes into this.

I don't think it could have been Chrysothemis unless the books were being lost before Pnyx was established, and I think that Selinus indicates they were lost after the city was constructed. It is possible that someone could have taken the book and given it to Chrysothemis, but this would suggest that someone from Pnyx traveled to Catarmarca during the era of the Tyrants, which seems risky.


Elder Diones (whose workshop is below Pnyx) is another possibility (although I think it a remote one). He might have traded the book to attempt to learn more about the Cult of Scylla, specifically its hidden Chiefs.

I hadn't thought of Diones, that's a possibility too

I still think it was Chrysothemis though. Maybe she was born in Pnyx, or maybe Magpie brought her the book. It even occurs to me that Magpie wrote the Sapphire Books, but I'm already convinced he wrote the Cipher Manuscript; & I don't want to make him out to be some bestselling author...

Now that you bring that up, Selax, it makes total sense for the person to be from Pnyx seeing as there was evidently a Seldane city right near there.

Is this the first book of discussion in the new Cythera Book Club, BW?

What time period did Neleneus the Savant live around? I wonder if maybe he traded with the Seldane for some information. Although, I doubt the Seldane would be able to give Neleneus the sort of information that he wrote in his prophecies, so he wouldn't need anything from them. Is there anyone else we know of in the game with certain knowledge of the Elementals' existence? It could be a character not in the game, although this would be unlike Gandreas, unless he was setting something up for Cythera II.

Edit: You're right, Buzzzzy, that was inexcusable grammar; hopefully it makes more sense now.

This post has been edited by The Wizard: 28 February 2011 - 12:17 AM

The Wizard, on 28 February 2011 - 12:06 AM, said:

The Wizard, on 28 February 2011 - 12:06 AM, said:

The dude who worked under Pnyx had the strange device, maybe that has something to do with it?

Buzzzzy, on 28 February 2011 - 12:11 AM, said:

Actually, that would make perfect sense. I hadn't thought of that before but Unhyat describes himself as the Doorkeeper. Of all the Seldane, he's the one in the best position to trade a doorkeeping device like the one Elder Diones has. That's also about the only plausible explanation as to why Diones has the Strange Device. Of course, if we assume that all this is true, and Elder Diones traded the book for a Seldane door key, it leads to more questions. How did he even find the Seldane? Did he know the Seldane language? Why did he want the Strange Device in particular? What else was it originally intended to unlock?

The Wizard, on 28 February 2011 - 02:26 AM, said:

Find out next time on...!

Wizzy- No, this is my second Book Club topic. The first one was the Cipher Manuscript (:

I forgot that Diones was the guy with the Strange Device! This is all coming together now ^_^

I have two main problems though: Anisa said the Sapphire Book was traded for knowledge - this sounds more like trading for an item. Maybe knowledge came with it though (like how to make a fruitcake looking exactly like it?). And where did Anisa hear that anyway? My second problem is, if Diones wanted that device so badly that he'd trade a valuable book for it, why didn't he use it to collect the mystical items?

Also, I believe Unhayt referred to himself as Doorlkeeper to the Ayrit. Will have to double-check that. Ayrit is the name of the city they live in, right?

BreadWorldMercy453, on 28 February 2011 - 11:17 AM, said:

It’s not exactly the easiest thing to use, and the locations are spread out, so it would have been difficult during the time the mages were exiled.

If Diones traded with the Seldane, he may have done so on more than one occasion. The Strange Device might not be the item that he traded the Sapphire book to obtain.

As for obtaining the mystical items, I'm inclined to agree with Buzzzzy about the difficulty in reaching the locations. It is also probable that the locations of the items were not divulged to him and he may not have even known what the device's purpose was.



453, it seems that there a number of legends concerning Metics and such. It is probable that one of them mentions the Sapphire book being traded, and that Anisa came across this account while researching the books.

Yeah, the more I think about it, the less sure I am.
It sounds like the tunnels under Pnyx were used by all the original founders, so there's nothing to say the the Seldane device belonged to Diones. These founders apparently saw Metics in the Headwater ruins (not sure if they were ruins back then?), but it's unclear how much interaction they had.

The Seldane don't respond to any of our ideas, which makes me wonder if it's even a character in the game after all.

Since Elder Diones' report is on the shelf, I think that Gandreas is probably suggesting that the workroom is his. But, it is true that Lindus says the tunnels were used frequently as storage, so I suppose anybody could have a workroom down there. Maybe a bunch of elders stored stuff in that room. One of them traded for the Strange Device, and one of them traded for the gauntlets

Diones wasn't that far removed from the founding of Pnyx, so I don't think the original builders using the tunnels would preclude the workshop being his. I'm still inclined to agree with Wizard that the workshop is intended to be his, although I admit the fact that a daemon seems to be guarding the area might suggest that it did belong to another.

(Personally, I have always thought it meant that Diones was in the habit of using more dangerous magics than later mages at Pnyx. An alternative possibility is that someone else sent the daemon to the workshop.)

The innkeepers like to gossip that the tunnels were "dug by the mages to keep their failed experiments in." If correct, that would imply that the tunnels were used for storage from the beginning - not a workspace. The magisterium students also gossip that the tunnels contain either treasure or failed experiments.

In my opinion, the game implies that the demon down there was the first demon created - a (very) failed experiment to create a less dangerous form of golem. Tavara must have been present then (whether or not he actually created that first demon, I don't know, but I'm pretty sure he made all the others), and was using that space as well. Perhaps the crystal ball was Tavara's too?

Also, wasn't one of Neleneus' prophecies on the bookshelf too?

All this to say, I don't think that space was exclusively Diones's.

This post has been edited by BreadWorldMercy453: 19 March 2011 - 07:15 PM

It seems to me that whoever created the workshop intended it to be hard to find or enter and thus probably intended it as a private workspace.

The matter of the crystal ball is an intriguing point that I had not considered. Since Tavara possesses the other two crystal balls, it is possible that the workshop actually belonged to him at some point or to one of his followers and that Diones report was merely kept there due to its relevance to the Cult of Scylla. The presence of the daemon--only found in sites important to Tavara--further serves to emphasize this possibility.

Still, since the game offers no direct indication of this place having been connected to the Cult in such a manner (which it usually does in other places connected to Tavara) and the report gives a specific name, I'm inclined to suspect that the workshop is intended to be Diones but that the earlier mages were a more secretive and desperate group with more dubious methods.

Regarding the daemon, I had always thought that Diones was just a little bit more unorthodox than his peers, but I hadn't recalled that the area was used as storage for failed experiments. Considering that, I'm inclined to agree that the daemon might simply be a failed experiment that has found its own way to the workshop or was originally created there. Another (weaker) possibility is that the daemon was sent later to kill Diones (although there would probably be a skeleton in this case) or at least to make sure no one found the workshop.


On another note, does anyone else have any speculation concerning the trading of the Sapphire Book?


(I really wish that gandreas would stop by to answer some of these questions .)

Sely and I were discussing the Report on the Hidden Chiefs and the Cult of Scylla in #cythera, and the question came up, was it even written by Diones? Or was it written to him? Thoughts?

I still think that space under Pnyx is a storage area rather than a workspace. Here's a link to Wizzy's map, if anyone wants to refresh their memories: http://people.ku.edu.../Under_Pnyx.png
It just doesn't look like a decent workspace to me. No tables or desks or counters or anything. Just a bookshelf, treasure chest, and fountain. The fountain seems to take up most of the room, and the whole room is probably pretty wet and uncozy. I'm convinced that the fountain and the demon were both failed experiments.

I think that storage space was used by Diones and the other founders of Pnyx. By the way, I was wrong about the second prophesy of Neleneus - it isn't down there, it's in Mage Machaon's workspace in Cademia. You can look at his workspace and compare it to the storage space under Pnyx. Way different!

I still like my theory that Chrysothemis met the Seldane and traded the sapphire book. I'm not sure whether she was raised in Pnyx, or if she was from Catamarca the whole time. But Anisa definitely thought the book was traded in return for knowledge - what knowledge could anyone else have gotten? I think either Chrysothemis wanted information about Magpie specifically, or else she just wanted to know about the Seldane in general and once she did, Magpie decided to marry her.

I'm not sure how much sense it would make for Tavara to have a storage space under Pnyx, but I agree with Selax that it is extremely interesting that fact that Tavara has the other two crystal balls, as well as the only areas in the game where demons are found.

It wouldn't make sense for Tavara to have used the storage space? Wasn't he one of Pnyx's founding mages?

I wonder what that says about the gauntlets then. Perhaps they were developed to amplify magical power, but instead only proved useful as a melee weapon.

I always assumed the gauntlets were magically enhanced, even though they aren't magical weapons per se.