Ambrosia Software Web Board: Joveia converts... yes you guessed it TO CHRISTIANITY - Ambrosia Software Web Board

I don't believe in God. That does not mean I believe in the non-existance of God. It simply means I have not seen any evidence to lead me to believe in either. I lean towards the non-existence, but if I saw proof that stated otherwise, I would believe in God.

------------------
dude3 -- a succession of trite homilies and unfortunate metaphors
Quote of the Week- "I don't need no arms around me / I don't need no drugs to calm me / I have seen the writing on the wall / Don't think I need anything at all" Another Brick in the Wall, Part 3
[url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/webboard/Forum12/HTML/000347.html#"]Stupid Joke of the Day[/url] :: [url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/cgi-bin/ubb/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=Ares+Trash+Talk&number=12&DaysPrune=20&LastLogin="]Support Your Local Undead Webboard![/url]

If Jesus actually lived as it is believed he lived, which is fairly likely, he would make an excellent role model, yes, but that doesn't mean that there can't be a bunch of extra fruity things written in the Bible that made it in through gossip and rumor, which usually change stories drastically.

The main problem with religion is that all religions teach basically the same thing - be a good self-sacraficing person and be kind to everybody and whatnot - but they also have different specifics when it comes to God (or gods and goddesses) and few of them acknowledge the possible legitimacy of the others. This leads to people trying to help each other by converting them and waging holy wars and the like.

There's also the problem that few people actually follow the teachings deeply. I don't know any Christians that even begin to resemble Jesus in kindness and acceptance and all of that.

Another reason why I'm not Christian is because of the vast number of other religions. Even if only one of them is "accurate," the chance of that one being Christianity is quite low.

I'm not atheist, however, because of the fact that all of these vast numbers of cultures have been inspired by some sort of supreme force and life after death and how this means that you should try to be as good a person as possible, and also because of crazy things that happen with near-death experiences. Though I need to do more research of religions and near-death experiences, too, before I'll feel completely solid with my ideas.

------------------
"Social lives are for the weak."

Being religious or not doesn't actually change whether you're going to be kind to others or self-sacrificing though, surely.

------------------

True, but religion adds an extra incentive (for those who don't really care too much about others) in the form of not wishing to burn in hell for eternity or anything along those lines.

------------------
"Social lives are for the weak."

[This message has been edited by Mag Steelglass (edited 04-26-2003).]

Ok, this after-life stuff is confusing. If whether you go to heaven or hell depends on how you conduct your life, what happens if you die when you are, say, one year old?

------------------

You can beleive whatever you want. It's your choice, it's a free country. I beleive though, that God is real, and Jesus was here. I only beleive this because of how I was raised. I beleive in something greater than a human. I understand the other side too though, who wants to beleive in something that's not real right? Sometimes it just gives you hope. And once in a while, that's all you've got. And that's where God comes in. Just a thought.

------------------
From the moment I picked your book up, until I laid it down, I was convulsed with laughter. Someday I intend on reading it.

Sometimes its simpler not to believe in anything. There aren't two extremes, there are a bunch of gray areas in the middle, Joveia. As a matter of fact, it seems people usually only believe in God when their life is going well or when their life is rather miserable. When its average, or when it doesn't suit them, they tend to ignore his existance.

Which is part of the reason I'm not really Christian anymore. (now don't confuse non-Christian with non-God) A lot of them were only 'honestly religious' when it suited them or on Sunday mornings.

I haven't found anything that really fits me just yet, and I don't have a lot of motivation to look right now.

------------------
"What we do not know, we cannot begin to understand."

Jovia, some of your arguments seem rooted in the fact that Christianity is a practical religion which makes people happy. Do you really believe in God, or do you just want society to be organized around Biblical principles?

------------------
I was disorientedly changing my body orientation in a clockwise direction while simulateously expressing my appreciation of mikee's humor and watching my posterior disconnect -- ElG7

Personally, I see Judaism as a way to make the Israelites feel good about themselves, and Christianity as an attempt to make Judaism appeal to more people. Religions have to evolve, and Christianity seems to have done that rather successfully. (For some reason or another, the word "meme" is coming to mind, but I can't remember just what it means)

As for my belief in God, it comes down to this: I was raised Catholic, and I get taken to church every Sunday morning. While I'm sitting there, I think to myself, "Why should I believe in this? God doesn't exist." After that, I think "Better not think that, I'm probably pissing him off."

[edit]
meme (mém) n. A unit of cultural information, such as a cultural practice or idea, that is transmitted verbally or by repeated action from one mind to another. [Shortening (modeled on gene) of mimeme < Gk. miméma, something imitated]
[/edit]

------------------
"There are 10 kinds of people in this world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't."

[This message has been edited by Pallas Athene (edited 04-26-2003).]

If you don't beleive in it, don't go. I go every Sunday because I enjoy myself. If you think about it, there's no reason in the world to be forced to do something against your will. Why don't you tell your parents that it's freedom of religion?

------------------
From the moment I picked your book up, until I laid it down, I was convulsed with laughter. Someday I intend on reading it.

Quote

Wouldn't it be nice if things were always that simple? I can think of one reason that that might not be a good idea- "You're going to hell, young man, and I won't have that in my family! OUT!"

------------------
Sundered Angel,
The One and Only
Ares Webboard Moderator, and all-around Nice Guy

This may be crossing the line...

Have you seen dark city? Those people are supposed to be representative of the forces of Heaven. As well as the Matrix - 'we created a perfect world for you, but you kept trying to wake up' Agent Smith and his allies conduct conversations like brothers. Continuously swapping lines of dialogue with each other, there is no form of power hunger...

This is Jesus type of government. It's quite close to communism. One day I think I'll switch BACK to communism, not because I believe it's a realistic type of government, but because it's a realistic type of achievable social model.

And btw, most religions would be eager to paint out there heroe as some sort of glorified conqueror. Muslims believe in Mohammed, he was a great warrior. He was also a religious man.

There are 3 great religions in the world, which have come to dominate. You know what they are: Christianity, Judaism and Muslim. Now, they are not actually so similar as to be classified by the same principles:

Christianity:

Roots in, Jewish biblical prophecy for a messiah. Messiah: A great warrior who would free the Jewish people from serfdom (under the Romans.) Result: A peaceful man who performed great miracles and came to allegedly save our souls. Result 2: Universally rejected

So you can see it's not natural for the christians to have made stuff up about him being a peace loving man. If they really wanted to convert the Jews they would have made him out to be a warrior (assuming he was made up.) But that of course he didn't free the Jews would have argued heavily against them.

Anyway. I believe that Mohammed was intended as a conqueror, an evil man, by God, but he repented and joined God (or started following him) and God recognised this and he is a symbol of repentance. In other words I think in the beginning Allah was the devil, but nearer the end of Mohammeds rule (or when he really started going) Allah genuinely was Yawheh/God/Jehovah or really the same god. Buddhism is another religion that leaves the question of godhood open.

[edit: oh I know the Muslim comment is dynamite. I don't mean to be having a go at them because most of his life was following God and also the Koran is probably mostly from God.]

------------------
There are only 3 kinds of people; those who can count, and those who can't.

[This message has been edited by Joveia (edited 04-27-2003).]

"Jesus was a communist". *Ponders suggesting that to a few people*

------------------
Sundered Angel,
The One and Only
Ares Webboard Moderator, and all-around Nice Guy

Fear. Jesus as your king!

Or even more terrifying... God!

------------------
There are only 3 kinds of people; those who can count, and those who can't.

Have you noticed that this is the most we've ever gotten out of a topic before. Besides, putting peeps down and all dat. Nice work.

------------------
From the moment I picked your book up, until I laid it down, I was convulsed with laughter. Someday I intend on reading it.

Quote

Muslims share the same god as the Jews. Read Abraham's story in Genesis.

------------------
"What we do not know, we cannot begin to understand."

Quote

What about Asia?

------------------
dude3 -- a succession of trite homilies and unfortunate metaphors
Quote of the Week- "I don't need no arms around me / I don't need no drugs to calm me / I have seen the writing on the wall / Don't think I need anything at all" Another Brick in the Wall, Part 3
[url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/webboard/Forum12/HTML/000347.html#"]Stupid Joke of the Day[/url] :: [url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/cgi-bin/ubb/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=Ares+Trash+Talk&number=12&DaysPrune=20&LastLogin="]Support Your Local Undead Webboard![/url]

The only people that Asia would be important to would be Asians.

------------------
From the moment I picked your book up, until I laid it down, I was convulsed with laughter. Someday I intend on reading it.

Asia... Muslims exist in Indonesia, malaysia... China? What do Chinese follow predominantly? I recognise Allah as being Muslims god. My theory is that God would never have allowed Muslim religions to flourish had it not come from Him, and I believe Mohammed was originally a conqueror before he turned religious and holy. So I think in a way he renounced his (potentially) evil self and that is why God allowed him to become His mouthpiece.

I think...

Blackdog don't be so suspicious

Our society is actually already shaped according to belief in Jesus. All of our advances come from Western society that we use today. Excepting gunpowder. And all of these inventions have predominantly PEACEFUL applications.

This is what makes God so angry. Turning inventions created for peace into inventions for war. There are no 'sciences' for war.

------------------
There are only 3 kinds of people; those who can count, and those who can't.

Chinese follow Budism (not sure on the spelling) prdominatley, or it is very close to the top. And to this: "There are no 'sciences' for war." -originally posted by Jovia- what about war science?

------------------
Quiet Henry or I'll fork your eyes out!
-from the britcom waiting for god-

Quote

If I remember, a large portion professes atheism (because of the communist leadership), but the three religions associated with China are Daoism, Buddhism, and (if you consider it a religion) Confucianism.

Quote

Of course. The Guillotine was invented for a quick and painless death; the Gatling gun as a surgical instrument. Hey, we invented the atomic bomb, but of course we only intended to use atomics for our nuclear reactors.

Belief in Jesus has really had very little influence on Western society when you get down to it (outside of what people did in church). Early on, the Pope had influence as a political figure, but even then, war and intrigue were all common on the international scene. Jesus may have preached to "love try neighbor," but few were actually willing to do so.

------------------
"I'm one of those things you'll save forever / but never read / like an old newspaper / no one has time to read
This child has grown into a dead end / since I lost the power to pretend
But it's all right, that's who I am inside
Not much to say, on this non-toxic, ordinary day" -SR-17, now you see inside

Quote

Not to mention the US Department of Defense invented the Internet, and that was mostly intended for military affairs. Dynomite and several similar high-explosives were originally invented by Nobel to be a weapon so powerful its devastating wartime effects would scare the world into peace. (come to think of it, that's part of the reason the atomic bomb was invented, along the same lines of thinking) The tank was invented to wage war, as it has very few peaceful applications. The list goes on.

------------------
"What we do not know, we cannot begin to understand."

[This message has been edited by Avatara (edited 04-27-2003).]

I can't seem to speak or think properly today so I guess I'll have to continue this tomorrow.

------------------
There are only 3 kinds of people; those who can count, and those who can't.

[This message has been edited by Joveia (edited 04-28-2003).]

I thought the atomic bomb was inveted so that we would win a war? Hmmmm I wonder, have I been mislead in my S.S classes my whole life?

------------------
From the moment I picked your book up, until I laid it down, I was convulsed with laughter. Someday I intend on reading it.

Quote

The primary motivation in its research was to get the Bomb before the Soviets. We didn't want them to have such destructive power before we did. To the US's credit, it didn't bomb the hell out of the USSR before they got the bomb a year-and-a-half (?) later, but in general, we played the Cold War on the same level as they did.

------------------
"I'm one of those things you'll save forever / but never read / like an old newspaper / no one has time to read
This child has grown into a dead end / since I lost the power to pretend
But it's all right, that's who I am inside
Not much to say, on this non-toxic, ordinary day" -SR-17, now you see inside