Ambrosia Software Web Board: Which is better? - Ambrosia Software Web Board

Now, today I got into an argument on GR over which ship in each of the following sets was better. Unfortunately, I haven't gotten the chance to test either set out online, so I'm asking others to see their opinions:

Schooner/Cruiser (Both Cantharan as a base)
Gunship/Escort (Either Salrilian/Obish or Human/Obish)

I'm a firm supporter of the Schooner and Escort, because:

• Neither the Cruiser nor the Gunship would manage to hit the Schooner or the Escort to take advantage of lower shielding,
  
• Escorts carry weaponry comparable to the Gunships,
  
• In pretty much any other respect they're equal.

Essentially here, I'm supporting the theory of greater Class ID, better ship (Up to 550). Eventually I'm hoping for this argument to mutate into agree/disagree on this system.
Beyond 550 it's specialized.

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"Once, just once, I'd like to be able to land somewhere and say, 'Behold, I am the Archangel Gabriel.'"
"I fail to see the humor in that situation, Doctor."
"Naturally. You could hardly claim to be an angel with those pointed ears, Mister Spock. But say you landed someplace with a pitchfork……"

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Actually, a Salrillian gunship (even a human one, with the turret) could hit the cruiser, and maybe the schooner to take advantage of the lower shielding.

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"I'm a controversial figure. My friends either dislike me or hate me."

i agree with pallas to a point, but the cruiser is a much more reliable and is a ship with more uses that the schooner. Try taking on a carrier with schooners

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just take my post, and imagine everything is speeled right.

[quote]Originally posted by Pyro:
i agree with pallas to a point, but the cruiser is a much more reliable and is a ship with more uses that the schooner. Try taking on a carrier with schooners  

Small ships vs Carriers is not a good idea. High-damage Gunship style ships vs Carriers, however, is. Oh, apart from the Obish Escort. But that ship is exceptional.

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Sundered Angel,
The One and Only
Ares Webboard Moderator, and all-around Nice Guy

I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you on both counts Pallas.

*The cruiser has antimatter pulses, a single one of which will do greater damage than 3 PK beams... even with superior maneouvrability, the Schooner would be hard pressed to achieve equal damage. With that kind of relative firepower, the cruiser gets the upper hand when it comes to head on fights. And I don't think anyone could manage to always be behind the cruiser.

*The Salrilian gunship has more than double the shields of the obish escort, and provided the enemy is not running away, it's pulses do 200 damage. Assuming the Obish will end up fighting the majority of it's battle face-to-face, the gunship will annihilate it. If we're talking about a human gunship, then I think the Obish one would win without too much trouble.

Well, let' take a little bit out of Hera to see some actual stats here. The Schooner has a max velocity of 7, and an acceleration of > .25 to take advantage of it. So, what's the Antimatter pulse's Velocity?

Seven

Yes, that's right; in a chase the Antimatter pulse can never reach the Schooner. From there I don't believe it's too hard to circle around the cruiser and get in a couple shots to the rear. I'm not debating the fact that the Schooner can't be in back of the cruiser the whole time……… but it can be in the rear 340 degrees the majority of the time, where cruisers can't hit it.


As for Escorts, there's again the assumption that the Gunship will be able to hit it. It's possible that claiming a Sal Gunship was worse was going a little far……… but then Ishiman Gunships aren't half bad for their race and there's probably no debate that an Escort could easily wreck them. Aud and Sal (and Gaitori……?) gunships happen to share a .3 advantage in turning, which happens to be a 25% advantage overall, and an advantage of 1 in MaxVel, again 25%. The equalization here just might be enough to tie up the Escort with the Auds and Sals (Gators have 1/6th the Health of them) but I'd at least say that it would be a hard-pitched battle.

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"Once, just once, I'd like to be able to land somewhere and say, 'Behold, I am the Archangel Gabriel.'"
"I fail to see the humor in that situation, Doctor."
"Naturally. You could hardly claim to be an angel with those pointed ears, Mister Spock. But say you landed someplace with a pitchfork……"

Hmmm... there's no debate at this end that the Ishiman gunship won't be annihilated by the Obish escort, but we knew that already. As for the equal velocity rates, well, that isn't extremely helpful for the Schooner. To maintain a steady distance from the pulse, the schooner will have to have already been going at 7. This implies that it never even had time to hit the cruiser, because if it did, then no way could it turn and accelerate out of there in time for the antimatter pulse to be left behind.

It's easy enough to get to the back of the cruiser long enough for a single shot - and with that acceleration the Schooner can be going at full speed by the time the Cruiser has brought its weapons to bear on the Schooner. No intelligent Schooner pilot would ever be in front of any other ship (except maybe a fighter) unless they were running at top speed, and you really seem to underestimate the speed/maneuverability of the Schooner.

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"Once, just once, I'd like to be able to land somewhere and say, 'Behold, I am the Archangel Gabriel.'"
"I fail to see the humor in that situation, Doctor."
"Naturally. You could hardly claim to be an angel with those pointed ears, Mister Spock. But say you landed someplace with a pitchfork……"

Let's do this another way.

Hits the schooner has to land to destroy the cruiser: 34
Hits the cruiser has to land to destroy the schooner: 8

Kind of in favour of the cruiser wouldn't you say?

You have complete faith in the Cruiser hitting the Schooner, and that's your blind spot. The cruiser is not easily able to hit the schooner, and I'd say that the Schooner is at least 4x as likely to hit the Cruiser as the other way around. That puts into at least equality, and I still say that the Schooner would edge out.

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"Once, just once, I'd like to be able to land somewhere and say, 'Behold, I am the Archangel Gabriel.'"
"I fail to see the humor in that situation, Doctor."
"Naturally. You could hardly claim to be an angel with those pointed ears, Mister Spock. But say you landed someplace with a pitchfork……"

on a totally different point of argument

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uh... i've done that with one cruiser, its not very hard as long as the cruiser isnt a sal one.

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just take my post, and imagine everything is speeled right.

Pallas, when did you last play a game where you were Cantharan? The cruiser is no carrier, slow moving and slow turning ship. It is the most manouevrable ship the canthrarans have apart from the schooner.

I Think its very possible for a Human Gunship to take out the Escort if the gunship is in the hands of a competant pilot. The Human has an advantage in that it can continualy deal out damage with its turent. It would still be very close however, given the overall excelence of the Obish Escort.

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Out ride the sons of Terra,
Far dirves the thundering jet,
Up leaps the race of Earthmen,
Out, far, and onward yet - Robert A. Heinlein, The Green Hills of Earth

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Or Ishiman? I was playing Ishiman vs Cantharan one day, and I decided to go on a little forage into my opponents base. Defending it was the usual... I killed the HVD straight away, and managed an ishiman carrier before being blown to little pieces. Then I took command of the assault force via my handy cruiser force. I lost every $@!# ship. They walk up to the carrier, get a mouthful of protoplasm, then indecision hits them, and they spin for some seconds, deciding whether to attack. Evidently deciding in the affirmative, they go for the throat, only to be taught a harsh lesson the dynamics of shield disintegration.

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You know, the Cruiser vs. Schooner arguement is probably a case for the Supreme Court.

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We will not change unless we survive but we will not survive unless we change.

Heh... don't expect anything but rabid self interest from that bunch, they will probably say schooner just because the fanatic cantharins are more their style.

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Out ride the sons of Terra,
Far dirves the thundering jet,
Up leaps the race of Earthmen,
Out, far, and onward yet - Robert A. Heinlein, The Green Hills of Earth

Anyone who says it's 'schooner' us doing to annoy us clear thinkers. It's so $!@# obvious the cruiser is better.

Clear thinkers? I guess not clear speakers. I think I got it the third time through though.

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"Once, just once, I'd like to be able to land somewhere and say, 'Behold, I am the Archangel Gabriel.'"
"I fail to see the humor in that situation, Doctor."
"Naturally. You could hardly claim to be an angel with those pointed ears, Mister Spock. But say you landed someplace with a pitchfork……"

Quote

The player is always the exception to any rule, due to the fact that the game is balanced so that a skilled player is considerably more skilled than the computer. It just wouldn't be fun if you couldn't pull kewl against-the-odds stunts.

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Sundered Angel,
The One and Only
Ares Webboard Moderator, and all-around Nice Guy

Of course. One of the fundamental assumptions from the beginning was that the two ships were piloted by equally competent players. In pretty much any ship with a class ID 300 and below (Not counting EVATs ) the player will win because, although the ship proficiency may vary, the player proficiency will negate this.

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"Once, just once, I'd like to be able to land somewhere and say, 'Behold, I am the Archangel Gabriel.'"
"I fail to see the humor in that situation, Doctor."
"Naturally. You could hardly claim to be an angel with those pointed ears, Mister Spock. But say you landed someplace with a pitchfork……"

I'm surprised that no one has played my scenario. Will someone who has support me in these dark times of unreason?

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A really good level to practice this is While the Iron is Hot, you can use one cruiser to fight the Carrier, the Gatori are horrible though so it's not as challenging as it could be.

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We will not change unless we survive but we will not survive unless we change.

Results of my testing:
Testers: Patrick, Steel Firebird(aka Taylor)
Results:

Match One
Patrick- Schooner
Steel Firebird- Cruiser
Results: A draw. Both of us ran out of energy and ammo.

Match Two
Patrick- Crusier
Steel Firebird- Schooner
Results:Crusier destroys Schooner when Firebird stops and begins spinning around in a circle. SF stated that he lost on purpose. I believe that I would have beat him anyways(he had just been blinking on 1:16 ~15 seconds before his destruction)

Conclusion:
More testing is needed, due to experimental errors and the small amount of sample battles.

Notes: CA, you need to fix the Escort vs Gunship level, it has Ish gunships instead of Sal or Human ones like it's supposed to.

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GR Name: Sgt. Patrick[EL]
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My upcoming Ares TC:
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[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 07-04-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 07-04-2001).]

--Double Post--

[This message has been edited by Count Altair El Alemein (edited 07-05-2001).]

No, I put it so the player with the gunship could choose between Salrilian, audemedon, Human and Ishiman races.