Ambrosia Software Web Board: What's the most powerful ship? - Ambrosia Software Web Board

What ship is more powerful the HVD or the carrier?

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Grand Fleet Admiral Slathkill, Supreme Commander I.M.A. Fleet

Hmmmmm, well lets look at the following facts before examining the carriers.

Fact: All HVDs are primarily the same, although there are several differences between several HVDs. For example, the human HVD has no missiles and the Salrilian HVD has a cloaking device (i.e. stealth field, whatever). However the others are almost identicle.

Now let's look at the carriers:

Audemedon Carrier:
W: Trazer Beam, Fighter Bay, A Missiles
Bad Side: Its Trazer Beam has a limited range and thus cannot adequately engage vessels outside its beam range.
Good Side: Its Trazer Beam is very deadly, and can engage multiple targets with its unusual design. Its Audemedon fighters are good, and the A Missile is a formidable weapon.
Opinion: The Audemedon carrier is an excellent vessel, definitely one of the best. However, a good HVD pilot can take one of these out by flying around it outside the carriers weapons range. However, an AI pilot will just fly right at it, and thus will usually easily be taken out.

Salrilian Carrier:
W: Trans-Space Bolt Rod, Torpedoes (I don't remember the name), and fighters.
Bad Side: Its Bolt Rod is slow in recharge and cannot easily hit vessels which move quickly. HVDs can usually easily take this vessel out with some help.
Good Side: The Bolt Rod has a long range, and so can hit most vessels before they can hit it. The carriers Salrilian fighters also give it a nice advantage, being hard to hit and carrying LRPK beam cannons which are highly dangerous. Another advantage is its torpedoes, which are also auto-target as well as homing.
Opinion: I usually do not favor Salrilian carriers, mainly because I dislike their Bolt Rod weapon. I do like its Salrilian fighters and torpedoe, though. HVDs can usually easily take this vessel out with some help.

Cantharan Carrier:
W: Cluster-Cell Cannon, C Missiles, and fighters.
Bad Side: The Cantharan carrier is slow and its fighters are not the best in the galaxy. Its cluster-cell emiters are short range, and vessels with long range cannons can take these vessels out with difficulty.
Good Side: Cantharan carriers are heavily armed and very few vessels have long range weapons. Vessels such as the gunship must come within range of its cluster-cell launchers in order to hit it. The Cantharan carrier, though having several weaknesses, is a formidable opponent.
Opinion: I've never actually attacked one of these with an HVD, but from what I see of these vessels it would be slightly hard, but practical.

Gatori Carrier:
W: Concussive Pellet Gun, C Missile, and Gatori Fighters.
Bad Side: These vessels have no autotarget weapons and their only really good weapon is their missiles. Its Gatori fighters pose no threat, and it can only fire its concussive pellet gun when you are in front of it, which you can usually avoid because of these vessels low maneuverability (i.e. They handle like a rock with lead weights).
Good Side: Nothing much. The only thing I can think of is that you only go up against these vessels with only cruisers (except for the other time when you attack one with your HVD). Opinion: These vessels are sitting ducks to hungry HVDs.

Ishima Carrier:
W: Protopulse Cannon, Ishima Fighters, and C Missiles
Bad Side: These vessels are slow. Their Ishiman Fighters are not the best in the word, but they are better than Gatori fighters.
Good Side: These vessels have a nice assortment of weapons and have a good autotargeting protopulse cannon, although it is not as good as the T Space Bolt Rod or the Trazer Beam.
Opinion: I have never gone up against these in an HVD, but I would guess it would be moderately hard. These vessels are formidable but lack a good long range primary weapon to hit an HVD with.

Human Carrier:
W: Laser Turret, Rapid Magneto Pulse, and Human Fighters
Bad Side: They are extremely slow and lack any sort of long range weapon or cannon. Although their laser turret is good, it is not strong enough to be a good weapon against HVDs or other large ships. Their fighters are horrible, and their mag pulses can only be fired once the target is in front of the vessel.
Good Side: The magneto cannon is strong and the laser turret is a nice autotarget weapon (dispite its weakness). The magneto pulse is usually most effective when used against large, unmaneuverable vessels.
Opinion: These vessels are not really that good against HVDs because of their lack of long range weapons. But hey, these vessels are just upgraded colony ships! Can't blame the humans!

Overral, I think it depends on the vessel. If the carrier is good, then the HVD will not do as well. If the carrier stinks, then the HVD has a good chance. It all depends on the vessel, and sometimes whether or not it is AI controlled.

-Captain Carnotaur
cdp@pautsch.com

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To Escape Velocity: Nova and Beyond!

if your talking about just a straight fight between a carrier and an HVD the HVD will almost always win as you can just sit out of the carriers range pounding it with your long range weapon. But in realality(thats spelled way off) the HVD is not a very suitable ship. The computer uses it very badly running away from even cruisers leaving it very vulnerable to attack. So technicaly I dont think HVDs are very good ships exept when against carriers, while carriers have more uses and can take on multiple targets so in the game of ares you would be bettter off with a carrier, unless of course you are takin on an HVD.

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just take my post, and imagine everything is speeled right.
nickel count: 5

Neithere is better. The carrier is anti-smallstuff. The HVD is anti-bigstuff. They serve different roles, and therefore cannot be compared. I have this theory going about niches. Every type of ship serves it's own niche. The more niches are filled, the more effective the fleet. The more the niches are balanced out, the more effective the fleet. I made a mixed gaitori fleet, and then made a gaitori fleet of the same price using only gunships. The gunship only fleet got slaughtered every time, because it overfilled one niche and neglected the others. Therefore, each ship is good in it's own way. (although in multiplayer, the whole theory gets flushed)

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"You can get much further with kind words and a loaded gun than you can with kind words alone."
- Al Capone

In my opinion, HVD's are by far the most powerful ship, but only if the player is using it. The AI doesn't know what to do with them. Just about the only ship a player can't take out easily with one of them is a Sal/Aud fighter. And of all of the HVD's, the Ishiman is the most powerful.

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Long Live Apple! Long Live the Mac!
[url="http://"http://www.geocities.com/salrillian"]http://www.geocities.com/salrillian[/url]
[url="http://"http://www.geocities.com/evclassic"]http://www.geocities.com/evclassic[/url]

Um, no. The HVDs are different, and the Cantharan and Salrillian ones are wussy, but the rest are tied for most powerful...

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"You can get much further with kind words and a loaded gun than you can with kind words alone."
- Al Capone

I like the Cantharan HVD because it's cloaked and it's gun is easy to aim.

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Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
-Alduran Outlaw Rick Blazer
StarLance

I never said you didn't like it. I just said it was wussy, as far as HVDs go.

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"Oi, oi, oi, me got a hurt n here
Oi, oi, oi, me smell a ting is near
Me gonna bosh and me gonna nosh
An da hurt'll dissapear"

In brute-to-brute combat, yes, but that cloaking device allows for some sneaky tactics.

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Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
-Alduran Outlaw Rick Blazer
StarLance

I know. I love the cloak. Cloaks are excellent. But we're discussing how powerful the HVDs are. The Sal and Cantharan HVDs are wussy, as far as HVDs go. The doesn't mean they're very bad, though.

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"Oi, oi, oi, me got a hurt n here
Oi, oi, oi, me smell a ting is near
Me gonna bosh and me gonna nosh
An da hurt'll dissapear"

The nich theory is bs.
Building all carriers as Ish will lead to victory, building gunships and cruisers as aud will lead to victory, building gunships as humans will lead to victory, and building carriers and gunships as salrilian will lead to victory. Balence just isn't gonna happen. It would be almost impossible.

As for the origional argument, carriers are way more cost effective, unless you're Gatori or Human. Try this in multi to see for yourselves.

All this is taken from my large mp experience.

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*Error: target is violating the laws of physics*
*Error: target is locally exceeding c*
*Error: unable to determine if target exists or not*
*Error: target cannot be hit*

In multiplayer, the theory DOES seem to take a lengthy trip out the window. But in singleplayer, when making my own plugs, I've found that, inexplicably, mixed fleets always seem to win, no matter what the race. Try making your own level. Gaitori vs. Gaitori. Player 1 (computer) has 1 hvd, 2 carriers, 10 gunships, 6 cruisers. Player 0 (human) has 24 gunships (approx. = in price). Go ahead and fight. You'll usually lose.

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"Oi, oi, oi, me got a hurt n here
Oi, oi, oi, me smell a ting is near
Me gonna bosh and me gonna nosh
An da hurt'll dissapear"

[This message has been edited by Mag Steelglass (edited 11-27-2000).]

I think the Gaitori(think its spelled wrong) HVD is the most wpoerful. From what have seen, its tough to kill, and those plasma things shoot pretty fast and hurt alot. Once in in a mutliplayer game, I was piloting a Gat HVD and went up agaisnt two Ishman HVD and won, true it depends on the pilot but i was taking there shots alot and my sheilds only went down half way, while i was pounding on them with 2-3 shots at a time and before i knew it they were dead. And i dont think cloaks are good, becuase you just have to look at your radar screen to see where they are. my thoughts.

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*insert famous line from either StarWars, Myth 2, Marathon Trilogy, Ares, StarCraft, Ultima Online, or from Ender's Quartet here*

Cloaks are not an up-close thing to use, unless you're playing against another human, in which case they're slightly useful. You cloak ships from long range. When I play as Salrillian, I build all gunships and cloak them all, then cloak my HVD. My enemy has no idea where I am. I also send cloaked transports to their base. There's only one person I've played against with this strategy that does well against it.

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"Oi, oi, oi, me got a hurt n here
Oi, oi, oi, me smell a ting is near
Me gonna bosh and me gonna nosh
An da hurt'll dissapear"

Quote

Actually, that's the one race that does balence right. Replace "Gaitori" with "Human" and see what happens. It will involve gunships winning, if not send me a copy.

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*Error: target is violating the laws of physics*
*Error: target is locally exceeding c*
*Error: unable to determine if target exists or not*
*Error: target cannot be hit*

But they'd get less gunships, because human gunships are more expensive. I'll try it, though.

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"Oi, oi, oi, me got a hurt n here
Oi, oi, oi, me smell a ting is near
Me gonna bosh and me gonna nosh
An da hurt'll dissapear"

Yes, but the carriers and cruisers have more relative suckage.
Also the gunships have actual shields.
I can think of no reason other than human control (this is comp force vs comp force, right?) why single player would be so different from multi.

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*Error: target is violating the laws of physics*
*Error: target is locally exceeding c*
*Error: unable to determine if target exists or not*
*Error: target cannot be hit*

There's also a definite of an HVD in multiplayer, and people are usually fighting for a bunker or something, and piloting skill while in an HVD becomes very important.

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"Oi, oi, oi, me got a hurt n here
Oi, oi, oi, me smell a ting is near
Me gonna bosh and me gonna nosh
An da hurt'll dissapear"

Well, once I did the following experament on my home lan ( ).
[Please forgive my science lab rootz]
Purpose: To figure out wheather Human gunships or carriers are better values.

Materials: 2 Power Macs, 2 registered copies of Ares, 1 LAN, one Ares net game (Between a Rock and a Rock), 2 Human carrier, 4 human gunships

Procedure: Launch the netgame with both players human. Have player 2's HVD stay away from the planet. Have player 2 build one carrier targeting their planet, and player 1 build 2 gunships targeting their planet. Once all ships are done, send the gunships to the carrier. Record the results and send any surviving ships to a bunker station. Repeat, only this time launch the carrier's fighter first.

Results: Both times, the carrier was destroyed without killing EITHER gunship. In the case with the fighters launched, one gunship's icon started flashing, indicating low shields.

Conclusion: Human carriers are total crud. I'll try cruisers next.

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*Error: target is violating the laws of physics*
*Error: target is locally exceeding c*
*Error: unable to determine if target exists or not*
*Error: target cannot be hit*

Human carriers are not total crud. They just suck when fighting gunships. Their size and toughness make them somewhat usefull as "walls." Human cruisers will also lose to their gunships, but they provide maneuverability and a bit of wussy support fire. They also have numbers, which allows them to confuse enemies for the time before they're destroyed.

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"Oi, oi, oi, me got a hurt n here
Oi, oi, oi, me smell a ting is near
Me gonna bosh and me gonna nosh
An da hurt'll dissapear"

Mag, if they lose to gunships like that, they are total crud in a relative sense.

What you need to realise, Darkk, is that fighting gunships is not the only situation human carriers are going to be in. Human gunships are excellent ships. They are also members of the gunship class. The gunship class is designed to take out the carrier class. Human carriers are not that great, as far as carriers go. Therefore, whenever we have excellent gunships fighting low-quality carriers, we get a gunship victory. However, put those carriers in a situation they're good at, and they'll do great. Likewise, swarm those gunships with aud cruisers and you have some very dead gunships. It all depends on the situation.

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"Oi, oi, oi, me got a hurt n here
Oi, oi, oi, me smell a ting is near
Me gonna bosh and me gonna nosh
An da hurt'll dissapear"

On the subject of cloaks on HVDs I think that it is a waste of time. The weapon space could be better used as cloaks are only useful against a human player. AIs 'Fly-By-Radar' and finding claked ships is easy for them. The only games where cloaks on HVDs are useful are the one player v lots of computer ships or the one net ship v one net ship (e.g. space warz).

On unrelated matters human guships are probably the best ships for killing carriers as the have a good ammo/life ratio. what I mean by ammo/life ratio is that ships with good ammo/life ratios are destroyed just as they run out of ammo (including reserve energy) ships with bad ammo/life ratios are destroyed before they fire much of their ammo or are destroyed a long time after they run out of ammo. This means that some of the space taken up by unused ammo could be used to carry more shields or some of the space taken up by shield generators could be used for more ammo. HVDs have some of the worst ammo/life ratios.

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Grand Fleet Admiral Slathkill, Supreme Commander I.M.A. Fleet

As for cloaks on HVDs, I think they are extremely useful. As long as the ships you build to follow your HVD also have cloaks, you can cloak your entire fleet that way. Believe me, that tactic works extremely well. Also, they are very useful for destroying your opponent's HVD in multiplayer, as they have a hard time finding you.

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"Oi, oi, oi, me got a hurt n here
Oi, oi, oi, me smell a ting is near
Me gonna bosh and me gonna nosh
An da hurt'll dissapear"

Quote

But only for ONE human controlled ship v ONE human controlled ship when you bring AIs into it they can find cloaked ships easily.

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Grand Fleet Admiral Slathkill, Supreme Commander I.M.A. Fleet