Ambrosia Software Web Board: UESC and M:Inv. - Ambrosia Software Web Board

Got an X-box for X-mas.
I've been playing Halo, and I'm convinced it takes place in the same universe as Marathon did. I'll spend the first part of this post backing up my belief, and the second part talking about what ramifications this will have on M:INV.
I talked briefly with Darkk on AIM about my theory, but I could tell from the start he wouldn't even acknowledge it no matter what evidence I presented him. He truly hates Microsoft, the X-box, and Halo. He also had some very nasty things to say to me.

Here is my supporting evidence the two games take place during the same war:
• The Main Character in Halo is a Mjolnir Mk. V Cyborg. He is the last of his kind, programmed for war against the aliens. In Marathon Leela mentions Mark IV soldiers:
(From Leela) "There is surprisingly good news planetside: nine military Mjolnir Mark IV cyborgs were covertly living among the colonists, and acting together they were able to single-handedly turn back the latter stages of the Pfhor assault. Casualties on the colony were nowhere near as high as those we experienced here on the Marathon.". That's more than good enough for me.
• Both games take place during Mankind's period as a fledgling interstellar empire. During mankind's expansion (colony ships, exploration, etc.), they are attacked by an alliance of aliens.
• Both games have a master race of aliens, AND in both games, the master races of the aliens (Pfhor/Elites) are almost identical. The [url="http://"http://halo.bungie.org/screenshots/pcgamer800/pcgamer.elitecov.jpg"]Elites[/url] and the [url="http://"http://www.eyrie.org/~aerianne/marathon/fighters.v1.jpg"]pfhor[/url]. Both races have [url="http://"http://www.bungie.net/images/site/halo/sculpture/juan12.jpg"]Three Eyes[/url], exactly the same legs (complete with an extra joint above the "ankle", two toes, and a wierd stubby thingy coming out the back of the "calf". Also, both alien races are approkimately 8 feet tall, have grey skin, and are skinny for their height. In the game, I saw the elites come in green, blue, and orange varieties (haven't seen a purple yet, but I might have missed it). They both grunt and warble in-game. Story-wise, they're both slavers, the master race. The only difference I see (besides better graphics), is the Elites bleed light purple and the Pfhor bleed light yellow.
• In Halo, the human forces are the UESC. This is verified by Cortana (the sidekick in Halo), Master-Chief, and others calling in "UESC ground force" on the second level. The UESC logo appears in many places in the game, and NOT just as subtle hints put in there by nostalgic game-designers. It's there blatantly, as in you can't miss them. The first time you see it is [url="http://"http://halo.bungie.org/screenshots/haloplayers.1005/pillar_of_autumn.jpg"]on the side[/url] of the Light-Cruiser Pillar of Autumn. Rather easy to see, but if you missed it, [url="http://"http://www.slugsoft.net/uesc.jpeg"]I've pointed it out[/url]. It also appears on [url="http://"http://home.earthlink.net/~monolithgrp/capn_logo.jpg"]uniforms[/url]. On the last level of the game, where's you're running around the crashed ruins of your ship, the logo is displayed very prominantly above the exit of the level.
• The weapons in both games are similar, but not in just their roles (every game has a rocket launcher, pistol, rifle, etc.), but in their names and designs. They're all from the same arsenal (the UESC). The rocket lanchers in [url="http://"http://home.earthlink.net/~monolithgrp/halo_spnkr.jpg"]Halo[/url] and [url="http://"http://home.earthlink.net/~monolithgrp/marathon_spnkr.jpg"]Marathon[/url] are identical. Even have the same exact name. The assault rifles are the same too, except in Halo it's called the [url="http://"http://www.charmille.com/halotimes/armes/images/3d_rifle.gif"]MA-5[/url], and in Marathon it's MA-75 (can't find a graphic), which also has a grenade launcher (higher model-number, more advanced weapon). Both games have fusion pistol that can charge up to release a mega-blast.
• Plot references. The Halo handbook (which I don't have access to at the moment but will get tomorrow morning) mentions colony ships being attacked by alien forces and the first contact with the aliens being when a colony was annihilated by an alien warship.
• Time frame. Both Marathon and Halo take place during mankind building a fledgling interstellar empire, only to be caught up in a war against an alliance of aliens.
• [url="http://"http://halo.bungie.org/screenshots/halomedia.112801/Halopic.46.jpg"]Hunters[/url]. Both games have [url="http://"http://www.eyrie.org/~aerianne/marathon/hunters.v2.jpg"]hunters[/url], huge hunched-over heavy alien infantry units that shoot green blasts. Both have spikes, a shield built into the arm, a large gun built directly into the armor, a hunch, hell even their [url="http://"http://scorpius.spaceports.com/~paceydre/covenant/cov_hunter.jpg"]helmets[/url] are the same (plain-round with a downward V for the eyes).
• The enemy ships are very very similar. Watch the [url="http://"http://halo.bungie.org/misc/halo2trailermirrors.html"]Halo 2 Trailer[/url] to see the enemy ships nuking some planet. Compare to the [url="http://"http://www.slugsoft.net/pfhorship.jpeg"]enemy ship from Marathon[/url]. Both have silvery metal surfaces, both are rounded, both have tiny pinprick-windows on them.
• Lastly, bungie has been [url="http://"http://marathon.bungie.org/story/timetable.html"]stringing it's games into one giant plot since the beginning[/url].

The second part:
This wouldn't mean any big changes in M:Inv's plot. Mankind would be badly-losing the war against the Pfhor/Covenant, untill an entire alien battlegroup is annihilated at a distant ring-world, with only the loss of a light-cruiser to the UESC. We'll have to wait for Halo 2 to see how the war continues at that point. The only major changes I forsee are that the UESC ships are going to have to change from Pallas' "elevator with nacelles" to something more resembling the [url="http://"http://halo.bungie.org/screenshots/haloplayers.1005/pillar_of_autumn.jpg"]Halcyon-class light cruiser[/url], [url="http://"http://www.bungie.net/images/site/halo/desktops/wallpaper/bombers_800.jpg"]Longsword-class fighter-bomber[/url], [url="http://"http://halo.bungie.org/faq/bumblebee.jpg"]Bumblebee-class lifeboat (escape pod)[/url], and the [url="http://"http://halo.bungie.org/screenshots/blues.051601/Screenshot-12.jpg"]Pelican-class Dropshop[/url].

What are your thoughts?

- Limax

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See I'm the king of the swingers, the Jungle V.I.P.,
But I've reached the top and had to stop,
And that's what's
botherin' me.

My thoughts:
[*]The Halo ground forces would definitely be called UNSC (either United Nations SolCore or Space Command, I believe), but I doubt they would be called UESC (Unified Earth Space Council) in Halo. In fact, marines in Marathon would probably be called UESG. Listen to it again, see what is said.
[*]Fall of Reach (The Halo handbook you mentioned?) doesn't talk about any colony ships being attacked. First Contact was at Harvest, an outer colony, without a colony ship. I doubt the UNSC was expanding at the time, as they were having a few internal struggles that they were trying to get under control.
[*]The Pfhor ship from Marathon is not the authority on Pfhor ships. If you check the M2 manual, and apparently also MI, you'll see different designs for the Pfhor ships, much more similar to my designs.
[*]You forgot an important reference - Durandal and Cortana. Durandal was the sword of Roland, and Cortana of Ogier (the Dane), both characters in the legends of Charlemagne.
[*]Another connection: Rampancy. You should be familiar with Marathon's version, but Halo's is another. Go to PoA, and kill the Captain. Cortana will claim that you've gone "rampant." Hmmm.
[*]Jason Jones (or equivalent Bungie authority) has said that it do not take place in the Marathon universe. So all arguments are irrelevant anyway.

I've been meaning to model some Halo ships myself, and I have a design for a Covie frigate (spent half of last year's chem final exam drawing it). But the M:Inv ships will remain as they are.

And I suppose it's time to reveal the tru7h about myself as well... I got one last Christmas - although to atone for this, I've made an attempt to play only Halo. MechAssault is good though...

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"There are 10 kinds of people in this world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't."

[This message has been edited by Pallas Athene (edited 12-29-2002).]

Thanks Pallas.
It was an interesting theory though.

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See I'm the king of the swingers, the Jungle V.I.P.,
But I've reached the top and had to stop,
And that's what's
botherin' me.

It is - Bungie policy is to never say anything straight out, but they had to break it here. Otherwise, it would probably be assumed that they were in the same universe, because of all the evidence pointing that way.

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"There are 10 kinds of people in this world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't."

Ah well, that would have been really cool if they had made another marathon game.

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See I'm the king of the swingers, the Jungle V.I.P.,
But I've reached the top and had to stop,
And that's what's
botherin' me.

Yeah. I think I mentioned that a while back.

I'm not even sure I'll buy Halo for Mac when it comes out.
I hate them all.

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"In literature as in love we are astounded by what is chosen by others." Andre Maurois

[url="http://"http://halo.bungie.org/theories/m.hilliard.html"]Cortana, the Main AI in Halo, is also in Marathon[/url]

Hm.

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See I'm the king of the swingers, the Jungle V.I.P.,
But I've reached the top and had to stop,
And that's what's
botherin' me.

The problem with that theory is that we know - quite specifically - where Cortana came from. Read Fall of Reach, and then consider that theory. Halo-style AIs come in two flavors, smart and dumb. 'Smart' AIs, such as Cortana, 1) have to be created from the brain tissue of a human, 2) have an operational lifespan of 7 years, and 3) are in short supply (As are Halo AIs in general).

Point 2 is the most important one here - according to FoR's military calendar, Cortana could not have been created any earlier than 2545, as she makes her first appearance in 2552. However, John-117 (The future Master Chief) makes his first appearance in 2517, on a colony world. There is even a distinction between Outer and Inner colonies, suggesting that a large empire is no new thing for the UNSC.

Tau Ceti, however, was the UESC's first extrasolar colony.

So, while it's an interesting theory, the only way to make it work is to pretend that Cortana invented time travel or interdimensional transport or something.

[In my opinion, the only reason the Cortana letters were sent to the Marathon's Story page was probably because, at the time, there wasn't a Halo story page. Marathon and Halo are related, but not so related as to be parts of the same Story.]

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"There are 10 kinds of people in this world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't."

Does the covenant have much of a beuracracy?

Fairly innocent question I hope.

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There are only 3 kinds of people; those who can count, and those who can't.

Unless I'm mistaken, the Prophets have absolute control over the political and spiritual aspects of the the Covenant, and the Elites have absolute control over the military. As the Covenant is based around religion, one would assume that it would be less necessary to implement a sprawling bureaucracy and more necessary to show a few recognizable leaders.

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"There are 10 kinds of people in this world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't."

Could the Covenant be related to the Spanish empire in the 16 century?

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There are only 3 kinds of people; those who can count, and those who can't.