Ambrosia Software Web Board: A Dis-Utopian Future - Ambrosia Software Web Board

I was thinking about technology and it's implications the other day, spurred by a comment from a friend about Echelon. For those of you who don't know Echelon is an agreement from (almost) all Western cultures to participate in civilian monitoring for terrorists, criminals etc... The problem is that Echelon monitors and is capable of calling up at will *anything* you have ever sent across the internet/mail/electronic services whatsoever, and using it against you if they have cause. By coincidence, I read an article in the paper about it the same day (not using the word Echelon, for convenience I will say 'Echelon), and this got me to thinking. What is the future?

Now, a government, by current standards, has 2 aims. That is, the just governing of it's citizens, and to stay in power. The first can be accomplished best with a democracy. The second can be accomplished best by a dictatorship. The ideal government is a mix between the 2. Maybe a democratic system with a moral dictatorship? But I digress. This is fairly current.

Now, there was an article the other day about scientists who used [url="http://"http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1961000/1961798.stm"]technology to control rats[/url]. What they did essentially is planet chips in the brain, to my understanding, which simulated pleasure when the rats were doing things that were correct. Now, a human is a good deal more complex than a rat, but the same nerves exist. It will be relatively simple to move from rats to dogs, and, as the technology becomes more refined to humans. Now, at that stage, commands could bypass pleasure and interact directly with nerve cell endings. What paraplegic's suffer, is the loss of these nerves, and often they are unable to move. Why? Because they do not have the connection to send the signal. This technology will do wonders for paraplegics, because they will now be able to have the connection return to them. But there is another practical use. The chips could mimic the actions of the brain. Having no nerve connection, the paraplegic would be helpless while electronic chips took over control of the limbs and body. This is not pseudo-science, this is really possible. It could be done with the proper research. Now, let's say we can also control facial movements, voice, eyes etc... There is literally nothing that we can control except the brain itself. But that doesn't matter. I mean, it's like he's going to cry out for help is he?

Now, we don't have to use paraplegics for this, of course. Some guy of the street will do very nicely. Just sever his spinal connections, put in the chips, and away he goes. A new man.

So, we have the technology to control people. There are a ton of moral and ethical concerns about this. I can imagine less shady regimes using the technology for dissidents etc... or to create human bombs. But let's be realistic - the technology will be difficult and expensive. I also think it likely that most regimes like that will be toppled and pounced on the *moment* there's any hint of them doing this kind of thing. Right?

But there are of course military benefits from controlling someone to this extent. Hook up the chips with a radio and what do you have? To all intents and purposes, telepathy. Just without the human mind. Connect that in turn to a developing neural net (adjusted for commanding a squad of humans) and with the potential to learn, a neural net could be a very good squad commander indeed. Now, let's pit a squad of these cyborgs against a bunch of the most elite units of the American army. Which side would win? Unquestionably, no amount of human discipline can equal a squad of human-robots with a singular consciousness and a commander who has an IQ comparable to a quantum computer.

As we know, a government's responsibility is to stay in power. I don't believe any country, any democracy any dictatorship will be able to ignore the potential that this technology could evolve. As we have seen, it's not exactly in fine print that most government's will sacrifice some of the freedom of it's populace to remain in power, and to protect the greater group. Such is the nature of our society. Thus, even the most ethically concerned government, with any need of defense will *have* to do this. There will almost not be a choice. Any responsible government will simply go ahead and hope it doesn't get out. The possibilities are too great - entire armies of cyborgs could rampage throughout a country, and with the proper weapons invincible. It would be like the Roman army facing down hordes of German barbarians.

Now, we have an army that is practically invincible - and more importantly loyal. No longer can the excess of a too-corrupt or tyrannical emperor move the plaetorians of old to rise and revolt. There is only one requirement to ruling, and this is the big red button which controls your soldiers.

It is inevitable this will become public knowledge. So we must move, by small steps like from euthanasia to active murder, from keeping a good military to keeping an obedient population. Dissidents will be snapped up and changed into quiet, complacent citizens. Eventually, the implant of chips will become compulsory for all criminals. Most of society will be free - of course, under the threat of a totally loyal army and having no free will/execution. Unlike 1984, there is not even the possibility of the proletariat to revolt. The government doesn't need anything like that - although they will probably layer it on with media control.

So, the scenario I have painted I freely acknowledge to be mere conjecture. But there are of course many, many an uncountable number of possibilities for the future. I would hypothese this is one, and a not too unlikely one at that. I have not made of use of telepathy, psionics, or any ridiculous and silly pseudo-tech fiction. I have not made of use of an unrealistic great 'Revolt' like in 1984 or Brave New World, or an unrealistic paralleling of motives with actual people. To my knowledge, everything here has been confirmed - in one way or another.

Comments?

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There are only 3 kinds of people: those who can count, and those who can't.

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Yes this is already being tried out by Professor Kevin Warick.

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Well. They would be able to communicate easily and their leader would be very good but they would not be unstoppable. Modern armoured vehicles are being designed to transmit telemetry back to base. There would be no advantage in having it come from an implant - they would still use radio waves which could still be intercepted.

They would be fearless but they would still have human strength, reflexes and weaknesses (i.e. they aint made of kevlar). Cyborg soldiers would, yes, have a slight advantage over ordinary soldiers but they would not be invincible.

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Nope. 'Good' countries like America have got just as many (and probably more) 'black reaserch' projects going on as 'bad' countries such as Iraq or Osama Bin Laden. Since the only way to get rid of America would be nuclear weapons counties would be reluctant to launch as this would assure mutual destruction.

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-Admiral-of-the-Fleet Slathkill II
We do not know what lies around the next bend on the information superhighway. All we know for certain is that when we finally get there, we won't have enough RAM.

Um this is scary. Very crazy to even think about. What is a plausible reason for such experiments?

I do believe they are trying out identification chips on people...maybe even broadcasted on TV. They put them under the right hand (good choiice says the Devil)...they might as well put a barcode on their forehead too.

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And then there were the toe-socks...

Well, I think I answered that question before. Cyborg collective consciousness-type soldiers, would provide an advantage. Slathkill pointed out something which is very true - America has these kinds of projects under development. I'd be surprised if they haven't tried something like this already.

Now then, the actual widespreadness of this would depend very much on how effective these soldiers were. So let's look at quantum computers. For those of you who don't know, a quantum computer can calculate the exact number of atoms in the universe in less than a nanosecond.

So assuming the advantage isn't that great, really, then there's still the fact that these soldiers would be super-loyal. A black project like this wouldn't necessitate unbeatable armies, it might result instead in just the loyalty factor. Politicians are attracted to power right? I think one of the main reasons that some president's/prime ministers haven't gone into let us say, lifetime presidency, is the fact that the soldiers would simply reject the orders and imprison the crazy prime minister. Or general. Of course, with nations who don't have a strong democratic background, then the reverse is true.

Well, something to think about.

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There are only 3 kinds of people: those who can count, and those who can't.

Very Syndicate Wars

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Syndicate Wars? You know I had Syndicate - good game, but old. I sort of loved the storyline, that it didn't well, have. So, is Syndicate Wars on mac? Just a thing about Syndicate.

In it, it gives the impression that Corporations pretty much control the world. Now, I used to be a believe in the great evil corporation (as I said, I used to be communist) but now I'm not so sure. I don't believe government will be replaced by corporations or even overridden and rundown. Society is moving in the direction of socialism and communalism, and corporations are based on greed. That said...

I think mind-controlling a population is going to be something the results of no one can predict. I'm sure it will be tried. And no one has any privacy really, nowaday. Invading the mind is just the last frontier. (I'm sure alot of mind-altering drugs will also be developed for new regimes, somewhat like 'soma' in Brave New World.)

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There are only 3 kinds of people: those who can count, and those who can't.

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Interestingly when Kevin Warwick had his first implant put in people accused him of having 'the mark of the beast', even though this is '666' on the right hand - and his implant was in his left arm. As a joke someone set the transponder in his implant to '666' - and the computer system wouldnt work! When the transponder was set to '126' the computer behaved happily! Spooky eh?

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-Admiral-of-the-Fleet Slathkill II
We do not know what lies around the next bend on the information superhighway. All we know for certain is that when we finally get there, we won't have enough RAM.

If you and I, Joveia, are as similar as I think we are, then you have definitely thought of this problem before. Of something bigger than us controlling us without our knowing. In fact, I'm pretty sure there is one, and the only reason why it doesn't shut us up is because it knows we can't do anything about it.

I am completely opposed to all this research that will only help us to have more power over eachother.
And say the super-soldiers were heavily armored and whatnot? An EMP blast could easily take out all of this technology long enough for our monkey hands to rip it to shreds.

And never say we might not have the funding to do such things. At any point, anyone can do anything. If I wanted to build a neutron bomb, I could do it. All I had to do was get the parts and know how to put it together. I wouldn't need money, I could just steal or make them myself. Money is never an issue at anytime. _Especially_ if the government is involved.

And what you didn't mention about the Echelon is that it also controls cameras around the world. And also, where did you get this information on Echelon? I get most of my news from Greek newspapers, as they are least biased and tell most of the truth about any country (gotta love Democracy, legal riots: "demonstrations").

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Beware My Big Stick

I'm pretty sure they're developing electronics that are invulnerable or shielded to EMP blasts.

Echelon... from a friend of mine. He reads rather heavily into internet articles bordering on paranoia. Only recently though, I saw an article in a paper which I consider to be reliable.

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There are only 3 kinds of people: those who can count, and those who can't.

You might be interested in reading 'Feersum Endjinn' by Iain M. Banks - it's set in the future where almost everybody has implants connecting them to the future internet. There's some quite good stuff about how the web is such a free medium of communication that the soldiers are 'taken offline' and make do with a stripped down military version - and even then only use that inside shielded vehicles.

Just a thought that upgrading a soldier's inbuilt comms systems might be a hindrance rather than a help. Plus, don't we already have jaming systems available? (not to sure about this - just from reading Tom Clancy )

I'm also thinking about medium they'd use - I think it'd be radio, at least for the forseeable future? Don't modern advanced combat teams try to be as radio silent as possible? Even super-cyber soldiers don't want to lose the element of surprise, I'd guess. (em, guess Slthkill did this one too)

Also, I think that the american defense research is more geared toward 'personless' war hardware - like those spyplanes that can launch missiles, or armed versions of the robot planes that the Eurofighter is shooting down in tests. Not saying that they'd turn down super-soldiers, but I think that popular pressure would limit it to just super-secret missions to begin with.

martin

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necro: Café Martin..
necro: where the waiters smell as strong as the coffee..

Since Brave New World has been mentioned a few times, I'd like to say that I consider Aldous Huxley (its author) to be quite odd. I (and most other people) would probably enjoy living in a society like that, once they got used to it.

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"Vampiric chickens are spiffy. Bak bak bak ARRR!"

That's why Brave New World is so much more realistic than 1984.

Oh, I consider it somewhat horrible. I mean, the sole object of their society is pleasure. That means the annihilation of alot of virtues - some of them that made that society possible. Pleasure is a dead end objective. You shouldn't spend your life maintaining the equilibrium, but changing it. Otherwise you go out of the womb and into the dirt the same person. It's like... the object of life is to do nothing.

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There are only 3 kinds of people: those who can count, and those who can't.

Considering the economic conditions pervading our world today, a comprehensive partnership working at full efficiency is probably, but highly unlikely. I think you're being scared by your own shadow.

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Where did you divine this little snippet from? I hardly agree.

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Unless you subscribe to some kind of X-Files reality, the government abducting individuals, or some paragovernmental group for that matter, is laughable.

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I think your logical ladder towards this conclusion are faulty. You assume entirely too much from three experiments conducted in a rudimentary fashion. You're calling a headache a tumor.

Secondly, as you pointed out in the next part of this paragraph, it's expensive. Conventional bombs are much cheaper and as we've experienced over the last few months, people are perfectly willing to blow themselves up without the help of a chip.

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This is scientifically unsound prognostication. You have radio communication between chips, which isn't possible under current circumstances. Neural nets have not advanced very much in the last ten years. Their ability for thought and control is negligible.

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In this conclusion you have failed to connect your initial statement, about Echelon to the rest of your argument. I'd like to know just what it had to do with it.

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Captaintripps: An Ape Man with Metal Parts
[url="http://"http://voxhumanasketch.tripod.com/voxhumana/"]VoxHumana[/url] -- Comedy of the Future

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Come into the argument with the guns firing eh?

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Where did you divine this little snippet from? I hardly agree.

Well, I got my source from the article in the newspaper. I got the name from various rumours on the internet and certain people (note I made no claim that Echelon needs to be used.) Given my lack of enthusiasm for internet arguments, I am not going to look for a site, but I'm sure if you tried you could find something. Just a note: in the 1980's New Zealand left the Echelon network and came out into the open about it. It might have received media coverage.

When you think of the quick speed governments are able to pursue technological leads, please think of this.

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I agree. You're ideas on the subject are laughable. Now let's get serious.

The government doesn't want power, I think is the assumption you're making here. So then, do explain why:

a) Politicians exist
Government's exist
c) Military forces exist

I will be interested to see you're logic fork. And I think you didn't pursue my comment thoroughly or you missed a huge chunk of your psychological and political classes.

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Terrorists, nuclear weapons? What are we referring to here exactly? And how does this tie in exactly with what I said? Of course, pointing things out that are extremely obvious and then expecting me to connect them with a somewhat detailed theory is hardly sportsmanlike.

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Radio communication is possible, chips are possible. Join the dots together and you get computers that can connect to the internet/satellite without using a phone line. I'm surprised you never picked this up - but.. you learn something every day don't you? Neural nets have not advanced alot, I'm taking your word for this. Though 10 years ago I doubt whether the word 'neural net' existed. At the moment, it certainly is. It would be an unscientific prognostication to assume that it will never advance.

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Well, I suggest you read it alot more closely. 'This got me to thinking' should be payed specific attention to. I was just ruminating - it's my essay style. You'll have to get used to it.

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There are only 3 kinds of people: those who can count, and those who can't.

I'm just happy to have a middle ground between htjyang and a three year old psychopath.

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I was actually referring to your ideas on the basis of what a government wants, i.e. power and just rule of its citizens.

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Which subject?

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It's only natural for hierarchies to exist in a social animal. This is how humans express such hierarchies.

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Sorry, I won't make the assumption that you read the paper on a regular basis again. I was referring to the Palestinian suicide bombigs, et. al. People are perfectly willing to kill themselves without a chip involved.

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But see, we were talking about bulky chips in rats, not small chips in bulky computers. However, making assumptions about the direction technology will take is usually shaky ground. Why, in the 1950s they expected us to have easily accessible computers in the center of town that only filled a small room. Your most likely bet for mind control will likely never come from a technological direction. Propaganda and media control seem to work quite well enough.

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Neural networks have been around for quite a while, as has the term for them. It's also unsound and unscientific to assume that something can advance ad infinitum.

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Touché. you got me on that one. My apologies.

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Captaintripps: An Ape Man with Metal Parts
[url="http://"http://voxhumanasketch.tripod.com/voxhumana/"]VoxHumana[/url] -- Comedy of the Future

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I don't respond well to personal insults.

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I have realised all too late that I am dealing with someone who writes their replies after the quotes. Usually I encounter the opposite. My apologies, I was not quick enough to pick that up, and as a result, my argument may have suffered.

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This one:

Unless you subscribe to some kind of X-Files reality, the government abducting individuals, or some paragovernmental group for that matter, is laughable.

Your idea. On the subject. Was laughable.

You see, I'm agreeing with you.

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Hierarchies such as a government, are based on a want of government, and a desire by the governor to govern. This is want of power. So if the component individuals that make up government like, and want to stay in power, then the government will want to stay in power.

For further information on the subject, I suggest you read Machiavelli. You may scoff at his ideas, but he was intelligent and is widely recognised as being so. Taking a crash course in human psychology would also be advisable.

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I might point out the Praetorians, from my earlier example, were perfectly willing to die for an emperor one day, and then kill him the next.

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Propaganda is indeed the prodigal daughter of any astute dictator. But if mind-altering or mind-enhancing technology becomes widespread, especially if - a track I haven't mentioned yet - if some branch of this knowledge could enhance the usefulness of an individual in some way, then you could bet it would be easy to use this as a complimentary measure.

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Let's just... settle on the word 'advance' here. Arguing about the future will get us nowhere.

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There are only 3 kinds of people: those who can count, and those who can't.

[This message has been edited by Joveia (edited 05-16-2002).]

That was actually a compliment. I've been reading your threads off and on for a while.

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So you apparently don't think the idea of the government abducting people and putting chips in their heads is laughable? That's essentially what you said.

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I could agree with that, I just wanted a further explanation which I didn't feel you gave at first. As for myself reading Machiavelli and psychology, we've obviously never had much discourse before.

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But tie that into your earlier comments on want of power and you have a body, the Praetorian guard, which had a rather large voice in imperial succession and power that stemmed from the Emperor. Suicide bombings do not follow the same power structure.

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But what benefits do you see a dictator gaining from a few select individuals being controlled by technology somehow? Such a track is entirely too obvious for an astute dictator. One of the best dictators and politicians in history, Caesar Augustus, gained control of Rome by seemingly being offered power, when it was really the reverse. He maintained power the same way. If one is too obvious about their scheming, the populace will revolt. For a system such as you describe, it would be better to have everyone implanted with such devices, which I still do not concede as plausible, for it to be truly effective at control.

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Then we might as well cancel the debate. This entire thread is based upon arguing on the future.

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Captaintripps: An Ape Man with Metal Parts
[url="http://"http://voxhumanasketch.tripod.com/voxhumana/"]VoxHumana[/url] -- Comedy of the Future

The argument is cancelled. I revoke your right to call me htjyang. I intensely dislike htjyang and disagree with all his views. I am also not a 3 year old psycopath, as you jokingly claim me to be.

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There are only 3 kinds of people: those who can count, and those who can't.

Sigh, I'll chalk this one up to my humour style, but you were actually the middle ground between the two to which I was referring. You're obviously well read and intelligent, but you don't start debates to beat everyone into the ground with so much evidence and twisted analysis, like htjyang, and I used a three year old psychopath because I couldn't think of an antecedent to htjyang. I really never meant to insult you.

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Captaintripps: An Ape Man with Metal Parts
[url="http://"http://voxhumanasketch.tripod.com/voxhumana/"]VoxHumana[/url] -- Comedy of the Future

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As much as you may or may not like htjyang, the guy can argue rather well; even if its over opinions that you don't believe in. Having your debating abilities compared to his would be a compliment... at least, that's how I see it.

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Morituri te Salutant
[ AIM: CrazyJ617 | B-net: Flatulence187 | [url="http://"http://pftn.evula.net/"]Pilot File Trade Network[/url] | [url="http://"http://www.evula.net/"]evula.net[/url] | [url="http://"http://www1.minn.net/~fpeters/scripts/happy.html"]Don't Click Here[/url] ]

Alright...

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There are only 3 kinds of people: those who can count, and those who can't.

Once again Flatty hits the nail on the head.

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Captaintripps: An Ape Man with Metal Parts
[url="http://"http://voxhumanasketch.tripod.com/voxhumana/"]VoxHumana[/url] -- Comedy of the Future

I received the insult.

htjyang's debating styles and mine are a little different, but I respect him and his style. He has skill with words, no doubt.

The reason I ended the argument, was that I didn't feel that there was anything much to argue over. You just associated that with my closure of the argument. Now, if you'll read above there, you'll see captaintripp's final comment.

I agree wholeheartedly.

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There are only 3 kinds of people: those who can count, and those who can't.

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Human discipline, no. Human creativity... perhaps. A computer is a computer no matter how well it is programmed.

New technology always has a downside. Always. There is no stopping the advance of technology; the whole world will not become Amish. As with every innovation since stone tools, we will simply adapt. Humans adapt well. Safeguards are possible for ANYTHING. If we haven't destroyed ourselves or succumbed to mind control with the incredibly dangerous technology we have had for centuries, we probably will not in the future. We are too good at preserving freedom and life at at least a minimum level; there haven't been any nuclear wars, fascism did not succeed, and, in general, unless you subscribe to conspiracy theories, most people have a great deal of freedom. So I wouldn't worry too much.

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If at first you don't succeed, use more duct tape.

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I guess you haven't thought about your own human mind much. It's composed of electrons and neurons, synapses regulate it. It's absolutely enormous, in fact. Consider it's pathways, these things, and a human mind is somewhat like an organic computer. Now then, if a human has programming/hardware via organic means, some sort of creativity, then surely it exists for computers (i'm not saying it's possible even within a thousand years) but then it surely is possible for a computer to have similar things.

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I share your optimism, actually.

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Fascism is a name for a certain system of government. Do you think the conditions for that government have evaporated now that 'fascism' has disappeared?

And freedom is of course, a relative word here. Do you have the freedom to live in privacy? Not if the press suddenly likes you. Do you have the freedom to discuss/talk/message people on an electronic basis without having everything recorded by Echelon? Nup, sorry. Do you have the freedom to walk in the streets? Yes. Provided no one has a reason for arresting you. If so, do you have the freedom to a fair trial? It depends. If you've offended the wrong people, or done the wrong things, you will be killed and tortured. Even in the US.

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There are only 3 kinds of people: those who can count, and those who can't.

[This message has been edited by Joveia (edited 06-02-2002).]