Ambrosia Software Web Board: Rank Races - Ambrosia Software Web Board

OK, htjyang, here we are..... this has been posted in the Briefing Room, Officer's Club, and Trash Talk, to get slightly different views. Here's what it is:

Please rank the races in two things:

1) Pure ships' power. A simple rating for how good the species ships are in general, at least from what you've seen (doesn't include any mods).
2) General power. A combo of technology, ship power (I don't know what the difference is to tell the truth), total naval size/power, and territory. Since only three races' territory are actually shown on the map, you'll basically have to guess as to other species' war readiness and territory.

Ish = Ishiman
Can=Cantharan
Gai=Gaitori
UNS=Human
Baz=Bazidanese
Ob = Obish
Ele=Elejeetian
Sal=Salrilian
Aud=Audemedon

Here's my ratings:

1) Aud, Ele, Sal, Baz, Ob, Ish, Can, UNS, Gai
2) Can, Ish, Gai, Sal, Aud, Ob, Ele, UNS, Baz

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--Joolzman5, that guy with the red spikey hair whose presence never fails to suddenly kill Mag Steelglass

I agree with you on #1, but here's a revised version of #2:

Can, Gai, Aud, Sal, Ele, Ish, Ob, Baz, UNS

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"Oi, oi, oi, me got a hurt n here
Oi, oi, oi, me smell a ting is near
Me gonna bosh and me gonna nosh
An da hurt'll dissapear"

I would put Audemedons near the bottom because they only inhabit a few systems and their production base is mostly drones, asteroid mines, jumpgates, Salrilian ships

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If our military is so much better than theirs, then why don't we ever use it?

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ranking of ship power (which is really military technology)
1. Prophets of Salril
2. Audemedon Axis
3. Elejeetian Empire
4. Bazidanese Star League
5. Ishiman Stellar Protectorate
6. Cantharan Order
7. United Nations of Sol
8. Obain
9. Gaitori Union

ranking of territory: Insufficient data. The fact is that you haven't seen the complete territory of most races yet. We can only make very rough guesses. I believe the only race's territory we have seen in its entirety (or near entirety) is UNS. I think we can safely assume that the Cantharans have extensive territory due to their crusades. The Ishimans probably have extensive territory as well, since they tend to settle other races in their territory. It is highly unlikely they can do this if they don't have an extensive domain. The Elejeetians were described to have an "empire" and the Gaitoris were said to be very large and prosperous a long time ago.

When I made the ranking in the guide, I also have to take into account some intangibles. A state's will and ambitions are very important factors in determining a state's overall power. Considering that the Ishimans and Elejeetians only severed diplomatic ties in protest to Cantharan Crusades, I was assuming that their wills were low, especially considering Ishiman aversion to losing the lives of their own people. You also have to take into account level 6 where despite the fact that Obish power plants were threatened, they seemed to be unable to defend them and required Ishiman help. You also have to take into account how many times you fought with and against each race as a measure of their wills. (I believe I listed this in the guide as well.) Once I took into account all of these factors, I arrived at my conclusions.

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Here is my opinion:

Pure Ship Power:
1) Audemedons (they and the Eleejee are equal)
1) Eleejeetians (they and the Audemedons are equal)
2) Cantharans
3) Salrilians
4) Ishimans
5) UNS
6) Gatori
7) Obish
8) Bazidanese

Overral Race Power:
1) Cantharans
2) Ishiman
3) Salrilian
4) Eleejeetian
5) Obish
6) Gatori
7) Audemedons
8) Bazidanese
9) UNS

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To Escape Velocity: Nova and Beyond!
--------------
Millennium. Its coming, prepare for it.
Coming to the [url="http://"http://www.ambrosiaSW.com/games/ev/chronicles.html"]EV Chronicles[/url].

[This message has been edited by Captain Carnotaur (edited 12-20-2000).]

You have to remember that the Salrillians are dewscribed as the "master race of the cantharans" the cantharans are their puppets. They have amazing tech, and the Auds to back them up, they don't need a large military, only enough ships to maintain control over the cans.

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Why do you think the auds have better ships than the Eleej?
The Eleej cruiser is equal to the aud gunship!

Also, I think the obish should be above the UNS, Cantharans, Gaitori, and Ishimans in pure ship quality, due to the kewl corepulses that do an arseload of damage that they have on their cruisers. Those things are POWERFUL.

I also think that in terms of overall power, it should be:
Sal, Cantharnan, Ishiman, Eleejeetian, Obish, Gaitori, Bazidanese, UNS

The Audemedons aren't incuded because at the time of the game they're just tools of the Sals, and have no independance of action.

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*Error: target is violating the laws of physics*
*Error: target is locally exceeding c*
*Error: unable to determine if target exists or not*
*Error: target cannot be hit*

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*Ahem* Elejeetian cruiser equal to the Audemedon Gunship???

In fact, the Audemedon Cruiser is somewhat _better_ than the Elejeetian one because of its holoemitter; other than that, they have equal firepower, shields, and maneuverability. The Audemdon Gunship is far better (and, I believe better than any Heavy Destroyer); it has this amazing ability to destroy everything in sight with incredible ease.

However I do agree with you regarding position of the Obish; even their transport is second-best in the game, because it has a repulser (as shown in Chapter 4). Salrilian transports are best because of their cloaking. As for the Obish Battleship: It's basically an Ishiman Carrier, with those essentially worthless fighters exchanged for thrust and shields; thus, it goes above Ishimans in my opinion. As well, for only one extra resource (in various mods, I admit) than the Ish cruiser, you get significantly better firepower, shields, and speed.

And one more argument htjyang: Why do you put Salrilians below Audemedons in pure ship power? The Salrilian Carrier may be marginally better than the Audemedon one, but you have to admit that all the other Audemedon ships greatly outmatch their Salrilian equivalents.

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--Joolzman5, that guy with the red spikey hair whose presence never fails to suddenly kill Mag Steelglass

This was another argument. The Eleejeetian cruiser's onas pulse fires twice as fast as its equivilent on the Audemedon Cruiser. Plus there's the whole "knockback" thing.

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But I think you have to take into account the facts that a) the Elejeetian beam weapon can disable a vessel temporarily and the Audemedon gunship is not as maneuverable as the Elejeetian cruiser.

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How do you know this? From what I could tell, the Obish destroyer was a rather clumsy vessel. I don't believe its shields is better than the Ishiman carrier, either.

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Maybe it's because I didn't. Go back and read my post again.

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I think Joolzman meant "why do you think audemedon ships are worse than salrilian ships?".
Well, the aud carrier is flat out inferiror 1 on 1, but the cruisers and gunships are clearly in the aud's favor, as well as the HVD and ATR. The Sals do have better transports, though.

Personally, I think all Aud ships except the carrier and transport are superior to all ships but the Eleejeetian ones.

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*Error: target is violating the laws of physics*
*Error: target is locally exceeding c*
*Error: unable to determine if target exists or not*
*Error: target cannot be hit*

Things is, I don't think that the Aud carrier is quite as sluggish as the other carriers. I may be wrong in that, but it seems like they move around a bit more nimbly (for a carrier). Anyways.

Aud carriers have those missiles that RIP things to shreds. A-missiles or something. Terrible things.

Salrillian carriers guided weapon is a little better if I can recall correctly.

An aud carrier's trazer beam bites as far as range, but it does a hefty amount of damage and also catches most missiles before they hit. Quite a good defensive mechanism.

A sal carrier has that blasted bolt rod. It'll blow the skivvies off most other ships. Works well against other capital ships because they don't move. Has a hard time with tinier vessels. Worst thing about the bolt rod in comparison to the trazer is that it doesn't catch those missiles quite as well.

So far the Sal carrier is a little ahead in ordinance. Better guided weaponry, and the secondary weapons cancel each others flaws and advantages.

Now it comes to fighters. Aud fighters are vicious little buggers. In my opinion much more deadly than the sal fighters because the carrier is packing a ship that has the shields and weaponry of a cruiser! Sal fighters have the long range, but you just can't kill an aud fighter for nothing.

In conclusion, I would probably rather fight an Aud carrier one on one, since you can stay out of the trazer range. In a fleet battle, I'd rather fight the Sals, since the Aud carrier will wade into the middle and lay waste with all the trazers blazing.

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Ne Cede Malis Sed Contra Audientor Ito

The reality is that A-missiles do as much damage as C-missiles. Some may perceive them to be more damaging because it is harder to destroy and diffiicult to evade. But the numbers tell us that they do the same amount of damage, 200 points.

El Spamo is right about the magno pulse on Salrilian carriers. Its range is as long as a missile and does an equal amount of damage. In addition, it has both auto-targeting and guidance systems. (1 of only 3 weapons in the game that can do both) I also agree with El Spamo on trazer beam and T-bolt rod.

Personally, I think the Salrilian fighter is better because of its long range beam weapon and the fact that it is difficult to see. The Salrilian fighter also has above average shielding (600) and better than average maximum velocity (6.00). In a fighter to fighter contest, the Salrilian fighter should have the upper hand because of its long range weapon.

I do believe that the Salrilian gunship is better than the Audemedon gunship for 2 reasons: a) it has a stealth field and the Audemedon gunship does not have good turning speed. You add the 2 together and you can see a picture of a Salrilian gunship that hits the Audemedon gunship from aft, re-enters stealth mode, evades the Audemedon gunship's highly inaccurate firings, drops out stealth mode right behind the Audemedon gunship, and starts the ritual again.

And of course, Salrilian transports have stealth fields. Audemedon transports are bull's eyes, just waiting to be picked off the screen.

The only advantage the Audemedons get is a cruiser v. cruiser fight.

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The Elejeetians have perhaps the worst military there is. The Elejeetians rarely arm their ships. They have the occasional cruiser to protect their border from pirates, but in a major armed conflict they would be overrun.

Sure they have superior cruisers, but they are to enemy fleets what fly swatters are to a swarm of locusts. The Elejeetians are a very peacefull race, and would be totally unable to fight off an invasion, which is why they have never once involved themselves in a previous war.

- - - - -

As for the Gaitori rankings, one must keep in mind that while their ships lack slightly, it is only because they are subjugated to the Cantharans. When the Gaitori Empire was at it's height, it was the most powerfull and feared faction in the galactic order. Look at flak drones! They are remnants of the "good ol' days" of Gaitor. Only through the combined efforts of Salril, Ishima, Obain, and Cantharis were the Gaitori able to be dragged down.

Also keep in mind that the Gaitori have a massive industrial base. The fact that their ships are so smegging cheap shows that they have mastered mass production. Should Gaitor be able to break from the chains of the Cantharan Order, they would quickly rise back to the level they were before.

- - - - -

The Audemedons: They inhabit four or five systems, tops. They have some niiiiice guns, but not very many of them. I dunno, even Nathan Lamont didn't indulge much on them so I can't tell.

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If our military is so much better than theirs, then why don't we ever use it?

Slug I agree with you with the Eleejetians since they are a very peaceful people, and probably don't have too much of a navy.
It's kinda odd that the Gaitori used to have such a powerful empire especially since they're so wimpy. Either they had HUGE advantage in numbers, or back in the day, that kind of tech was state of the art.

The auds however, are probably underestimated. They don't have to worry about morale, or civilians, or other things like that. So if they decided that they want to make a huge-arse navy, they can. Plus, the amount of systems that they control or have construction/shipyards in is quite unknown. The ships are very powerful and they probably have better production of ships per shipyard than any other race. They are robots, they build stuff fast and don't need to rest or change shifts or negotiate with union bosses or other time-consuming stuff. I think that the auds are way to enigmatic and dangerous to dismiss so casually.

But the other stuff I agree with.

Scary would be the day that the Auds get independence of the Sals. They'll expand into uncharted areas, and inhabit the most inhospitable places and will probably construct so many ships so fast that everyone else will get overwhelmed. Scary no?

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Ne Cede Malis Sed Contra Audientor Ito

I think Sal and Aud ships are different, not better and worse. Sal stealth shields are incredibly useful, and they have those nice long-range pk beams. Their gunships are my favorites and their carriers just rock. The aud ships, on the other hand, beat the tar out of anything that's nearby. I say their ships are approximately equal, as long as you know how to use them.

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"Oi, oi, oi, me got a hurt n here
Oi, oi, oi, me smell a ting is near
Me gonna bosh and me gonna nosh
An da hurt'll dissapear"

I agree with El Spamo on all counts (with htjyang's corrections about missiles). Htjyang, I did mean it the other way around in my last post; I would definitely put Audemedon ships in front of Salrilians. Sorry I forgot to read over my post. Anyways, the reason I would put Audemedon ships first is because of their sheer power. While Salrilians may have cloaking and slightly better turning, the Audemedons have sheer ripping power. Ship comparisons:
•Fighters: Each has their advantage. The Salrilian fighter is hard to see (though that's only a really significant advantage against human, non-AI players) and has a long-range beam. The Audemedon fighter, I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) has the same shielding, 600, plus a beam that's nearly three times the power of the Salrilian LRPK beam. I personally believe that in a single fighter-to-fighter contest the Audemedon Fighter would win since once the real combat gets going they're at close range and the higher damage rating would win out. In a fleet I believe the Salrilian Fighter would win; as is easily seen, when approaching a Salrilian fleet there is a shower of long-ranged beams coming towards you, and some of those beams are bound to hit you. As for speed, the average fighter speed is 6; even Human and Ishiman fighters have that top speed.
•Crusiers: No contest; we agree on that. Firepower makes up for cloaking; and the Holo-Emitter is nice when the Audemedon Cruisers are defending in groups.
•Gunships: I disagree with you, htjyang. The Audemedon Gunship is my favorite ship. While it has the same shields and maneuverabity as the Salrilian Gunship (except for the turning advantage which I don't think is all that useful), the Audemedon Gunship's firepower far exceeds the Salrilian Gunship's. This is especially useful in fleets but I think that even one-on-one the Audemedon Gunship would win, at least when both are AI controlled. (The AI is fairly good at finding cloaked ships.)
•Heavy Destroyer: Audemedon HVD wins out. The cloak is no match for the A-Missiles. As well, (again, correct me if I'm wrong) the Audemedon HVD has more powerful beams as opposed to longer-ranged; I addressed this difference with the Fighters.
•Carrier: One on one, the Salrilian would win because its beam has a longer range. In fleets, the Audemedon would win because its beam does more damage, and can go in three different directions at once. Other people seem to agree.
•Special-Purpose ships: Salrilians win with their Transports and Assault Transports (those Magno Pulses are pretty nasty).

Go ahead and argue; this may end up in more long replies like in "Just Vote."

Slug: Where does this information about the Gaitori come from? I think that the Obish were winning the war; though most of their weapons were borrowed, their ships are far faster and better-shielded. You do have a point about the Gaitori having strength in numbers and mass production, however. And one more thing htjyang: I'm absolutely sure that the Obish Battleship has much better thrust than the Ishiman Carrier, if not better top speed and shielding. Just try flying it.

Merci.

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--Joolzman5, that guy with the red spikey hair whose presence never fails to suddenly kill Mag Steelglass

The Obish were winning the war, but only in the end after Ishima and Salril decided to directly intervene and turn the odds against Gaitor.

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If our military is so much better than theirs, then why don't we ever use it?

Where do you guys get all that info from? It sounds like the earlier history of the Ares universe would make a great plug-in! Slug, are you planning anything like that?

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"Sergeant, you can't fire that in here! We're indoors!"
"Only until I pull the trigger, Captain!" -Terry Pratchett

Well, I think Slug was making a plug-in about that, but there is already a story about what happened before the game. It was written by a moderator named htjyang, who is now working on a story about what happened after the game. But anyway, It's called "What Comes Before", and just go to the [url="http://"http://www.AmbrosiaSW.com/cgi-bin/ubb/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=*Ares+Chronicles&number=22&DaysPrune=20&LastLogin="]Ares Chronicles[/url] to find out. Read it, start with [url="http://"http://www.AmbrosiaSW.com/cgi-bin/ubb/newsdisplay.cgi?action=topics&number=22&forum=*Ares+Chronicles&DaysPrune=25&article=000025&startpoint="]Chapter 1[/url], it's a great story!

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To Escape Velocity: Nova and Beyond!
--------------
Millennium. Its coming, prepare for it.
Coming to the [url="http://"http://www.ambrosiaSW.com/games/ev/chronicles.html"]EV Chronicles[/url].

[This message has been edited by Captain Carnotaur (edited 12-22-2000).]

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1) Silly me, I wrote the guide myself and I didn't even notice the fact that fighters generally have a top speed of 6.00
2) We don't have data on Audemedon fighters (perhaps someone with Hera can enlighten us on this) but I'd agree that the shields on an Audemedon fighter is probably 600. Also, their weapon does a damage of 80 which is nearly 3 times more powerful thab LRPKBC.
3)The problem about an AI v. AI contest is, as you said, the Salrilian capability to "camouflage" itself loses its importance. Furthermore, although the Ares AI is better than EV/O AI, it still doesn't know how to take full advantage of the capabilities of its ships. Otherwise, The Salrilian fighter can take advantage of its long range weapon and pull a Monty Python on the Audemedon fighter.

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Originally posted by Joolzman5:
€Crusiers:  No contest; we agree on that. Firepower makes up for cloaking; and the Holo-Emitter is nice when the Audemedon Cruisers are defending in groups.

These are very valid points. But what I was thinking about was that the holo generator makes the Salrilian stealth capability worthless. Even with the ability to launch stealth attacks, the Salrilian cruiser might chase the wrong ship! Considering that the Audemedon cruiser has a long range pulse weapon, it can easily come around to its opponents rear and start shooting.

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Originally posted by Joolzman5:
€Gunships:  I disagree with you, htjyang.  The Audemedon Gunship is my favorite ship.  While it has the same shields and maneuverabity as the Salrilian Gunship (except for the turning advantage which I don't think is all that useful), the Audemedon Gunship's firepower far exceeds the Salrilian Gunship's.  This is especially useful in fleets but I think that even one-on-one the Audemedon Gunship would win, at least when both are AI controlled.  (The AI is fairly good at finding cloaked ships.)

Again, I'll have to concede this point as well because you are thinking in terms of an AI v. AI conflict. I think you can agree that if the contest is between 2 similarly-skilled human players, the Audemedon gunship will be in a disadvantage due to the Salrilian stealth field and their "camouflage" capability.

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Originally posted by Joolzman5:
[b]€Heavy Destroyer: Audemedon HVD wins out.  The cloak is no match for the A-Missiles.  As well, (again, correct me if I'm wrong) the Audemedon HVD has more powerful beams as opposed to longer-ranged; I addressed this difference with the Fighters.

I never played net games before (due to slow modem) so I can't speak to the Salrilian heavy destroyer. However, from what I've seen of the Audemedon heavy destroyer, as long as the Salrilian heavy destroyer has a steath field and decent turning, it should have the upper hand in a contest between 2 similarly-skilled human players.

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Originally posted by Joolzman5:
[b]Slug:  Where does this information about the Gaitori come from?  I think that the Obish were winning the war; though most of their weapons were borrowed, their ships are far faster and better-shielded.  You do have a point about the Gaitori having strength in numbers and mass production, however.  And one more thing htjyang: I'm absolutely sure that the Obish Battleship has much better thrust than the Ishiman Carrier, if not better top speed and shielding.  Just try flying it.

Merci.

Slup claims that his information comes from Nathan Lamont. I withhold my judgment.

You're probably right about the Obish destroyer.

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I am making a plugin about that as we speak. I'm not quite sure whether to make it a trilogy that explains everything, or to preserve some mystery about the Ares universe and only do just what I planned origionally. So far I've finished Part One, detailing the first encounters the Salrilians had with the Audemedons and I'm working on how they intervened in the local Gaitori/Obish war.

I dunno, maybe I'll start beta testin' soon but it's a very high-quality plug.
It's fun to see a trio of Salrilian D-7 Class Frigates tear into an Audemedon Mothership, it really is.

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If our military is so much better than theirs, then why don't we ever use it?

Can't wait for it Slug! <––– supposed to be slobbering, not really sticking tongue out

htyjang: Then I guess we agree that Salrilians are much better against human players than AI; however, I thought the list of ship power was supposed to be pure power, AI against AI. Sorry I guess I kinda misunderstood you. However I still would put Audemedons first in ship power. And yes I agree about the Salrilian Cruiser going after the fake holo-projections, thus revealing itself; that would be a disadvantage for the Salrilians.

However I intended this topic to be more of a poll than an argument; could more people please answer my initial requests? Thanks.

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--Joolzman5, that guy with the red spikey hair whose presence never fails to suddenly kill Mag Steelglass

BTW htjyang, great stories!

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--Joolzman5, that guy with the red spikey hair whose presence never fails to suddenly kill Mag Steelglass

D-7 Class... They're the T-shaped ones... No cloak. But D-7A's do have cloak.

Sorry, been playing too much Starfleet Academy...

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8 Lightnings
Fleet: Lightning 1, Surge, Eagle, Endurance, Voltare, Alecto, Magaera, Tisiphone
"CRUISER DESTROYED. 91 remaining" -Ares, chapter 9, Hand Over Fist