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ARES X It returns...

#151 User is offline   eveningtoast 

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Posted 30 October 2008 - 08:04 PM

View PostPallas Athene, on Oct 30 2008, 07:34 PM, said:

• Many of the sounds (excluding the music) were purchased from elsewhere and Nathan doesn't hold the copyright over them. Even if he were to give us freer reign over the data files, he would not be in a position to let us extract and redistribute the sounds.

If need be, I can see what access I have to sounds we can use.

View PostPallas Athene, on Oct 30 2008, 07:34 PM, said:

• The Ares universe itself is sort of a personal matter for Nathan (if you play Starbase Defender, you'll see the Grolk and the Zerbilites make an appearance). He would prefer if a project did not use the "Ares" name per se, but something more like "OpenAres". He was definitely not amenable to people trying to make "Ares 2".

So he approves of 'OpenAres,' does he dislike 'AresX'? That's what adam_o set-up on Sourceforge, and what people have been addressing it as so on the boards.


Edited quote, BBCode error.

This post has been edited by eveningtoast: 30 October 2008 - 08:08 PM

#152 User is offline   Pallas Athene 

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Posted 30 October 2008 - 08:17 PM

View Posteveningtoast, on Oct 30 2008, 09:04 PM, said:

So he approves of 'OpenAres,' does he dislike 'AresX'? That's what adam_o set-up on Sourceforge, and what people have been addressing it as so on the boards.


I don't know; I asked but he hasn't responded.

This post has been edited by Pallas Athene: 30 October 2008 - 08:18 PM

#153 User is offline   EVWeb 

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Posted 30 October 2008 - 08:33 PM

View PostPallas Athene, on Oct 30 2008, 05:34 PM, said:

Guys, a quick note about copyright and the Ares Data files–

I talked briefly with Nathan about the copyright status of the data files, since as was stated earlier, they are not slated to be open-sourced, and there are some legal issues with what I've been doing extracting assets from them. There are a couple of points from that conversation that need to be brought up:
  • Right now, we do not have the right to redistribute anything derived from the data files. I am assuming that the sprites and music are excepted from this, since they were produced with his permission, but we should not be trading anything else around. It's alright to use my scripts to extract stuff on your own, but don't ask me to send you the results, and don't send them around yourself; legally, we can't.
  • Many of the sounds (excluding the music) were purchased from elsewhere and Nathan doesn't hold the copyright over them. Even if he were to give us freer reign over the data files, he would not be in a position to let us extract and redistribute the sounds.
  • The Ares universe itself is sort of a personal matter for Nathan (if you play Starbase Defender, you'll see the Grolk and the Zerbilites make an appearance). He would prefer if a project did not use the "Ares" name per se, but something more like "OpenAres". He was definitely not amenable to people trying to make "Ares 2".


Ah... so you're made me your partner in crime have you? Well if the cops come, I'll tell them it was your fault...

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#154 User is offline   adam_0 

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Posted 30 October 2008 - 08:41 PM

View PostPallas Athene, on Oct 30 2008, 06:17 PM, said:

I don't know; I asked but he hasn't responded.

I hope he's alright with Ares X, because it does kind of throw a little tribute his way by using that name, and also because I don't know how hard it might be to change the name on SourceForge.

It's definitely good to ask, though.
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#155 User is offline   zamzx zik 

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Posted 30 October 2008 - 09:52 PM

rudy has gone with xsera.

I second that name.
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#156 User is offline   JacaByte 

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Posted 30 October 2008 - 10:02 PM

And only now do I see the significance of that name...

I third it. :P

This post has been edited by JacaByte: 30 October 2008 - 10:02 PM

#157 User is offline   redsteven 

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Posted 31 October 2008 - 10:51 AM

View PostPallas Athene, on Oct 30 2008, 08:34 PM, said:

Guys, a quick note about copyright and the Ares Data files–

I talked briefly with Nathan about the copyright status of the data files, since as was stated earlier, they are not slated to be open-sourced, and there are some legal issues with what I've been doing extracting assets from them. There are a couple of points from that conversation that need to be brought up:
  • Right now, we do not have the right to redistribute anything derived from the data files. I am assuming that the sprites and music are excepted from this, since they were produced with his permission, but we should not be trading anything else around. It's alright to use my scripts to extract stuff on your own, but don't ask me to send you the results, and don't send them around yourself; legally, we can't.
  • Many of the sounds (excluding the music) were purchased from elsewhere and Nathan doesn't hold the copyright over them. Even if he were to give us freer reign over the data files, he would not be in a position to let us extract and redistribute the sounds.
  • The Ares universe itself is sort of a personal matter for Nathan (if you play Starbase Defender, you'll see the Grolk and the Zerbilites make an appearance). He would prefer if a project did not use the "Ares" name per se, but something more like "OpenAres". He was definitely not amenable to people trying to make "Ares 2".


Good to know. I vote for "OpenAres X" as the name :P

BTW, did he mention anything about his progress on releasing the source?

EDIT: after a discussion with rudy... "xsera" isn't so bad a name ;)

This post has been edited by redsteven: 31 October 2008 - 12:59 PM

#158 User is offline   gavin83209 

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Posted 31 October 2008 - 05:46 PM

View PostEVWeb, on Oct 30 2008, 05:33 PM, said:

Ah... so you're made me your partner in crime have you? Well if the cops come, I'll tell them it was your fault...

:P

I take full responsibility for this project, if need be. Stand easy, EVWeb.

View Postzamzx zik, on Oct 30 2008, 06:52 PM, said:

rudy has gone with xsera.

I second that name.

What special meaning does xsera have? Starts like XServe, ends like Hera. Or is that the point?
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Ares X

#159 User is offline   Ragashingo 

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Posted 31 October 2008 - 06:01 PM

Try reading it backwards...

#160 User is offline   gavin83209 

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Posted 31 October 2008 - 06:07 PM

Very clever. I never would have guessed. Thanks.
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Ares X

#161 User is offline   eveningtoast 

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Posted 31 October 2008 - 09:28 PM

I understood Xsera, but I have two questions...
1) Whose Rudy?
2) I second OpenAresX, or some variation of Ares in a forward like direction.

#162 User is offline   JacaByte 

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Posted 31 October 2008 - 10:53 PM

1) A code monkey from Hector's lair.

#163 User is offline   Captain Bob 

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Posted 31 October 2008 - 11:21 PM

View PostPallas Athene, on Oct 30 2008, 07:34 PM, said:

Guys, a quick note about copyright and the Ares Data files–

I talked briefly with Nathan about the copyright status of the data files, since as was stated earlier, they are not slated to be open-sourced, and there are some legal issues with what I've been doing extracting assets from them. There are a couple of points from that conversation that need to be brought up:
  • Right now, we do not have the right to redistribute anything derived from the data files. I am assuming that the sprites and music are excepted from this, since they were produced with his permission, but we should not be trading anything else around. It's alright to use my scripts to extract stuff on your own, but don't ask me to send you the results, and don't send them around yourself; legally, we can't.
  • Many of the sounds (excluding the music) were purchased from elsewhere and Nathan doesn't hold the copyright over them. Even if he were to give us freer reign over the data files, he would not be in a position to let us extract and redistribute the sounds.
  • The Ares universe itself is sort of a personal matter for Nathan (if you play Starbase Defender, you'll see the Grolk and the Zerbilites make an appearance). He would prefer if a project did not use the "Ares" name per se, but something more like "OpenAres". He was definitely not amenable to people trying to make "Ares 2".

This changes things. My understanding was that the goal of the project was to create a version of Ares which plays on OS X. But now Nathan Lamont says we can't use the game's original content. And if the original ideas of Ares he wants to keep for himself, that precludes us from creating new replacement content.... So there's really no way to make a game that would still be Ares. All that's left would be making a new game using the Ares engine, that's not Ares. I don't think that's what anyone has in mind.

As for a name, I would've suggested Formido or Metus for a non-Ares game (the logic follows Deimos Rising being the sequel to Mars Rising), but Xsera sounds good.
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#164 User is offline   Pallas Athene 

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Posted 31 October 2008 - 11:32 PM

View PostCaptain Bob, on Nov 1 2008, 12:21 AM, said:

This changes things. My understanding was that the goal of the project was to create a version of Ares which plays on OS X. But now Nathan Lamont says we can't use the game's original content. And if the original ideas of Ares he wants to keep for himself, that precludes us from creating new replacement content.... So there's really no way to make a game that would still be Ares. All that's left would be making a new game using the Ares engine, that's not Ares. I don't think that's what anyone has in mind.


Not the case. We can't redistribute the results of modifying data files, but we can work with the originals (alternately, we can distribute a program to modify them locally). I also don't see why we would be precluded from doing anything we could have done with Hera.

#165 User is offline   KGB 

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Posted 01 November 2008 - 05:06 AM

Pallas - good to see you again, always nice to hear from our veterans around here - and especially on such a cool topic. I genuinely wish I had the coding skills to contribute to this project, I've been missing out on Ares since my old 8600 had a logic board failure years ago. It's always encouraging to see people working in unison to keep the classics alive.

I also wish to use this opportunity to thank redsteven and Nathan Lamont for rejuvenating this topic!

OpenAres X team, let me know when you need beta testers.
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#166 User is offline   prophile 

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Posted 01 November 2008 - 01:29 PM

I thought I'd drop in a possible here: "Apollo" for the name? "OpenAres X" seems a bit wordy, and the craft in the game was renamed from Apollo to Ares...
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#167 User is offline   KGB 

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Posted 02 November 2008 - 12:32 AM

I don't know how many hits google gets for "Ares" each month, but we should keep it somewhere in the title. I'm sure there are some with an interest in the original version that might be searching for nostalgic purposes, in which case a result containing some combination of "Ares" and "X" would likely get their attention.
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#168 User is offline   adam_0 

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Posted 02 November 2008 - 12:57 AM

View PostKGB, on Nov 1 2008, 10:32 PM, said:

I don't know how many hits google gets for "Ares" each month, but we should keep it somewhere in the title. I'm sure there are some with an interest in the original version that might be searching for nostalgic purposes, in which case a result containing some combination of "Ares" and "X" would likely get their attention.

Considering that this game's free, it doesn't really need any marketing, if you know what I mean :P

Really, the decision's up to NL - it's his game, he decides what becomes of the source code he releases. I'll be fine if he says that we can's use the word "Ares" in the title, but until then, it's Ares X. I think "OpenAres X" sounds too much like a library or framework or something, not a game. I guess the real answer is "wait and see what NL wants".
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Posted 02 November 2008 - 03:47 AM

View PostPallas Athene, on Oct 31 2008, 10:32 PM, said:

Not the case. We can't redistribute the results of modifying data files, but we can work with the originals (alternately, we can distribute a program to modify them locally). I also don't see why we would be precluded from doing anything we could have done with Hera.

Ah, I think I misread part of your post. I think there's still a potential problem, though. If we make an open source program which can read and interpret all the Ares data files, and everyone can freely download those data files like they can now as part of the shareware package, then that's effectively equivalent to freely releasing those files. Right now, you're supposed to buy Ares to access a lot of the game's content. Take those sounds for which NL doesn't hold the copyright, for example. Whoever does own the copyright may not be happy if now anyone can download and use them free of charge, if you see what I'm saying. I realize you can already extract the sounds using ResEdit, but making a program to specifically reverse engineer the data formats might catch the eye of someone's legal department.

The second potential problem would arise from doing graphical or other enhancements to the game's content. If I had crafted my own game universe, and felt that my universe was a "personal matter" as you described it, I would probably not want other people to tinker with my vision by creating updated copies of my designs and adding their personal interpretations in the process. Whether I had the legal basis to disallow such derivative works or not, doing so would be going against the preferences of the original author. So I'm still trying to understand exactly what Mr. Lamont does and doesn't want to come out of this.
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#170 User is offline   Pallas Athene 

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Posted 02 November 2008 - 03:43 PM

http://biggerplanet.com/ares

Quote

Ares was a computer game written by Nathan Lamont and originally published by Changeling Software, which went out of business while launching Ares in 1998. Ares was modified by Lamont and re-released by Ambrosia Software in 1999.

In 2008, Nathan Lamont released the original source code to Ares under the GNU GPL 2.0.

The Ares Source Code

The media (text, images, sounds, and music) are not part of this distribution and are not covered by the GPL license. Therefore, it is not currently legal to redistribute the media files.

If you are a developer looking to port the original game, Lamont recommends programmatically extracting the data at runtime, and storing the results locally in a more convenient format.


Also, there is a README that contains a fairly precise description of his feelings about Ares/OpenAres/Ares 2:

Quote

About the Code
You may use the code any way you like, so long as you make the source available under the GPL. See: http://creativecommo...censes/GPL/2.0/ for a summary ;the complete text is in the file titled "License for Ares Source Code."

The code was written in spurts over a long period of time and should be looked at as more of a creative work than an engineering project. Please don't ask me about it, and especially don't ask Ambrosia.

Good luck.

A Request
Please use "OpenAres" or some other alternative instead of just "Ares" in the title of any derivative works. If I decide to create a new game based on Ares, I'd rather not have it confused with derivatives of my prior work. Therefore I wish to strongly discourage the release of additional games called "Ares" which may be interpreted as my own.

For example, it would make me unhappy to have someone else release something called "Ares 2."

The Media
The media files, including all images, sounds, and music, are not covered by this license. I retain the copyright to the media, and the license to the source code does not grant you a right to redistribute the media files in any form.

This does not preclude you from programmatically making use of existing legal distributions of the media, e.g. extracting data from the original data files at runtime and storing them locally.

#171 User is offline   gavin83209 

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Posted 02 November 2008 - 05:34 PM

Incredible. Now if only I can find out how to compile it…
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Ares X

#172 User is offline   redsteven 

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 06:23 PM

Well done Pallas, well done :P

#173 User is offline   adam_0 

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 08:33 PM

View Postredsteven, on Nov 3 2008, 04:23 PM, said:

Well done Pallas, well done :P

Well done to you too, for getting this started - and for contacting Pallas.

On another note, look for a new topic soon that will become a progress log and a cumulative source for everything Xsera!
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#174 User is offline   eveningtoast 

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Posted 04 November 2008 - 07:25 AM

It makes me happy to see this. :P

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Posted 04 November 2008 - 07:34 PM

So, is there anything the average board member can do to help at this time?

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