Ambrosia Software Web Board: *Run screaming in the other direction* - Ambrosia Software Web Board

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The part about how ion cannons work is correct. The problem with your argument lies within physics, though (assuming that I was right about how the EJ field works--and since I have yet to be corrected to that effect, I am using that assumption in the following argument). The EJ field works by using a magnetic field to disrupt the electronics of an attacking ship. This makes sense. What also makes sense is that ions create magnetic fields. Thus, an ion stream would create a magnetic field that would do the exact same thing as the EJ field except, since it's a stream and not a field, be a lot more potent and long-lasting. This being said, my argument stands.

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You're right, the force did not play a part in the Battle of Endor. The fault with the problem of my argument is that it's fuzzy, though. I didn't clarify it.

The force could play a very large roll. A pilot or commander, using the force, would anticipate the attack of the enemy, be able to avoid it, and possibly be able to capitalize on it. In Episode 1, the kid (can't remember his name...I told you I wasn't that good at this Star Wars stuff! ) used the Force to anticipate the course, and this sets up a precident for the Force to be used in an anticipatory manner.

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I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not attacking your shield arguments because I just don't feel like it. That, and I don't have enough information about the Ares or Empire shield generators to make a decent argument...or even an argument that I could post here.

~IB

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"There are two major products that come out of Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence."
--Jeremy S. Anderson

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"For all we know" is pretty much your only argument there.

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As for the whole asteroid issue, it's called Realism.

Examples of Unrealistic:
-A fighter colliding with an asteroid, knocking it in the totally different direction
-Onas pulse having infinity-efficiency
-Gateships being used in military strikes

Examples of Realistic:
-Collision with Asteroids fatal
-TurboLasers destroying large ships

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Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
-Alduran Outlaw Rick Blazer
StarLance

"What also makes sense is that ions create magnetic fields. Thus, an ion stream would create a magnetic field that would do the exact same thing as the EJ field except, since it's a stream and not a field, be a lot more potent and long-lasting. This being said, my argument stands."

Uhh, *MY* point is that the reason the shields need to be down is the ions' field wouldn't influence the stuff inside the shields without physical contact.

"The force could play a very large roll. A pilot or commander, using the force, would anticipate the attack of the enemy, be able to avoid it, and possibly be able to capitalize on it. In Episode 1, the kid (can't remember his name...I told you I wasn't that good at this Star Wars stuff! ) used the Force to anticipate the course, and this sets up a precident for the Force to be used in an anticipatory manner."

There are a grand total of 3 people working for the Empire at the time who could really do that. Mara Jade (more of a spy), Vader (duh), and the Emporer (like he'd risk his neck). All the anticipation in the universe won't help if your shots do zip damage.

I will repeat shield argument until you give up or disprove it.

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"'For all we know' is pretty much your only argument there."

What more arguments do I need? We have no basis for comparison of turbolasers and photokinetic beam cannons. Therefore further discussion of that is useless. Shields and disabling stuff is all we can compare.

"The whole asteroid issue" is called DETAILS. Pay attention in English class, and you'll learn that really important stuff is in the details. Physics class works too.

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The Ares asteroids are different than the Star Wars asteroids. Just watch the movie, and play Ares. Ares has green asteroids, which are all the same size, and white asteroids, which are all the same size unless blown upi by astrominers. Star Wars has brown asteroids, of many varying sizes. The asteroid that wiped out the Star Destroyer's bridge was colossal compared to the ones in Ares. Also, shields in Star Wars are more designed to repel energy than to repel other objects.

As for ions cannons, watch the Empire Strikes Back. The planetary defence ion cannon knocked out the Star Destroyer, and I highly doubt that they'd lower their shields when enemy fighters were coming in, and they were that close to an enemy planet.

Even if the Star Destroyers DID have wussy shields, think of the amount of ship you'd have to blow away to do much. Those things are huge. You'd have to destroy at least a few trillion cubic feet of solid metal to render one of those incapable of doing anything.

And as far as Imperial weapons doing badly, think about the sheer numbers of weapons they've got. Most Star Destroyers have thousands of turbolasers.

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"You can get much further with kind words and a loaded gun than you can with kind words alone."
- Al Capone

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Ok, the asteroids seem not too different in size (assuming fighters are about the same size in both). The Ares ones would do a little damage even if they were tinier if the shields were wussy like the Empire's. I submit that ship debris does damage while asteroids don't. Probably because ship debris has lots of energy from the ship blowing up.

And I suggest you watch again. It takes 2 OR MORE shots. The first one lowers the shields. Ions do damage just like any other fast moving matter.

And they have SIXTY turbolasers. With slow recharge times. Thousands is ludacrous. The ECLIPSE SUPER STAR DESTROYER (even bigger than Vader's) had only 550 turbolasers. It does have 500 heavy lasers, so thats a total of 1050, but that's only one big ship that isn't ready yet. As for death stars, see tractor moors.

Further evidence of the Ishiman's technical superiority comes from the fact that superlight works right on top of a planet. In any invasion scenario, the Empire wouldn't be able to protect its shuttles. Assuming it could win the fleet battle (not dang likely, see shields).

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You know what, screw the Hoth cannon. Go to the bookstore, and open up the strat guide to TIE Fighter. Games ARE cannon, so I can use this. Count the mentions of "helping lower the shields so the gunboats can disable <rebel ship> with their ion cannons." QED.

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If so, how does the magnetic field of the EJ field, which is EXTERNALY GENERATED, affect the matter inside the shields without physical contact? Please let me know, because I'm really curious.

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This is the point where I get to bring in two facts that astound me (though the shouldn't astound you.). One, that I've read a Star Wars novel (confused the hell out of me, but I did pick up one thing, which will be my point, below). The other is that Star Wars novels are considered canon (something that actually happened in the Star Wars universe). I can't recall the title of the novel, but I can recall one very important point: Luke was teaching, repeat teaching, other people how to use the Force. This being said, it's reasonable that Mara Jade, Vader, or the Emperor could teach others, and those could teach others, ad infinitum. In short, it wouldn't take too awful long for the Empire to get a whole lot of people who know how to use the Force. Since you've already said the Empire would be the agressor, and I agree with that, the Empire would have quite a while to build up an "arsenal" of people who know how to use the Force.

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Ok. You've said that weapons are not able to directly carry over, but that shields are. First, I'd like proof that the shields in Ares work on the same physics that the ones in Star Wars do. Nathan Lamont, if you're reading this, feel free to support Darkk on this matter.

Even if the shields in Ares were comparable to the ones in Star Wars, I'd still say that the Empire's shields were much more powerful. Why? Because the Star Destroyer that ran into the asteroid probably had its shields down. The Star Destroyer captain probably got stupid and, instead of keeping his shields up to deflect the asteroids, lowered them in order to present a lower profile to the asteroids so that his helmsman could avoid them better. Keep in mind that in order to refute this argument, you have to refute the argument about shields carrying over, first.



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"There are two major products that come out of Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence."
--Jeremy S. Anderson

Your Argument of PhotoKinetic vs. Laser Beams has no proof whatsoever and is totally unfounded. You just say "PK Beams are stronger" and only give the "What if" saying to back it up. In the Star Wars Novels (one of the origional 3 by Timothy Zahn), in one of them (forget which) it describes a single turbolaser shot taking the top off a mountain on the Noghri homeworld and sending a deafening shockwave into the village.

In the Ares titlescreen, you, uh, see a PK-beam exploding rather softly (judging by the blast patern) on an Audemedon Carrier.

The asteroids in Star Wars are more realistic than the asteroids in Ares. Come on, green asteroids? Milky White??! The "Asteroids" in Ares are what would be considered Meteors in Star Wars: they're tiny, beat up, easy to destroy (relatively speaking), and bounce off objects with very little inertia whatsoever.

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Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
-Alduran Outlaw Rick Blazer
StarLance

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Slug, take a class in rational thinking or something. I'm not saying PK beams are stronger. I'm saying we don't know. It doesn't really matter.

A quick eyeball estimate based on actually watching that sequence gives it about 2x the size of the Millenium Falcon. Assuming fighters are the same size (can't see why not), that's about HVC size. The asteroids in Ares that do no damage to fighters are about HVC size.

As for the SD having its shields down to make a smaller target, that's just stupid. It would only make sense if the shields actually couldn't make a difference. The idea of manuvering a SD out of the path of those asteroids is so ludacrous, if the Imperials think like that, then the Ish wouldn't need tech or numbers to beat them.

As for different shield types, there is no good explanation how either works. It's just technobable. However, there are only 2 ways to make a shield.

[list=1]
[*]Virtual object: somehow create the effect of a solid piece of matter there, using supercharge or virtual particles. I'm guessing this is used in Ares because it would take damage.
[*]Negative gravity: use negative energy to build a "hump" in space. Projectiles will "roll" away from you. 2 problems: it wouldn't take damage (Imperial and Ish shields do), and the stress would cause massive hull stress.
[/list=a]

Finally, about the ion/EJ beam: I don't give a 쬂* how either works. I just care that in Star Wars the ion beams CAN BE PROVED to need hull contact, and the EJ beam can be proved to work while shields are up. This is in engine. For both. No arguments can alter the truth.

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[This message has been edited by Fleet Admiral Darkk (edited 11-18-2000).]

There's no way to tell scale from sprites. Unless Nathan Lamont says that they were indeed made to be accurate. And the asteroids in Ares do damage. Ten damage, to be exact. And Ares doesn't really fit the laws of physics at all.

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"You can get much further with kind words and a loaded gun than you can with kind words alone."
- Al Capone

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Whatever. The point still stands. NINE COLLISIONS won't kill an Ish fighter. 1 collision took the bridge off a Star Destroyer. An Ish cruiser could survive 99 collisions. The Ish cruiser has shields at least 100 times that of a Star Destroyer. And while the planet to ship stuff I'm pretty sure wasn't ment to be accurate, I think ship to ship scales were. In any case, check the movies. They are 3D and therefore have correct scale. They also support MY point. Same size (If anything, the Ares one is bigger), probably same composition. QED.

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Well, in that case all this goes out the window and the topic should be locked. Star Wars doesn't obey them either, and who cares?

Let the debate continue eternally, or admit my shield argument. There is no way to prove it wrong other than "the Empire's supposed to have better shields/tech".

The Ishimans being nonmilitaristic isn't a factor. The US immediatly prior to WWII wasn't very milataristic. In 5 years it had nukes, one of the largest and best air forces in the world, and one of the largest and best navies in the world. The Ish could be that way. Somehow, their warships are better than the supposedly militaristic Cantharans. [sarcasm]Those HVDs are quite pacifistic and very useful in peacetime.[/sarcasm]

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[This message has been edited by Fleet Admiral Darkk (edited 11-18-2000).]

I dont know if I should be in this but i would like to clear a few things up.
First the Force, first it cannot be "learned", you first must have it inside you then you can hone your skills, plus there were more then just 2 dark jedi's, Mara and Vader, that have the force, there were hundreds of Jedi hunters that were skilled in the force. Second the Force didnt zip thrue The Battle of Endor, it had a major effect. The whole time the Emperor was emperor he was part of his fleet, he made them fight, think, and work toghter better, for example how did the Empire still lose The Battle of Endor, even if they lost the Death Star II, the hidden fleet was twice the size and power of the rebels, the way the rebels won was after the Emperors death they were dissarryed and faught like seperate organisms, many crashing into each other(source-Grand Admiral Thrawn from the Grand Admiral Thrawn trilogy).
Second i want to clear up the Ion cannons, first it all depends on how you calabrate your shields, if Ion Cannons can go thrue or not. For example if you calabrated your shields for turbolasers then Ion Cannon could fly right thrue and vice versa. And I'm thinking that the Ishmans dont know how to calabrate there shields for turbolasers and Ion Cannons, and since the Empire is the Agrreser they would know how to calabrate there shields for the Ishmans, so the empire would have a major advatage since Ishmans have no armor and if there weapons could fly right thrue then one shot per ship, and tie fighters have VERY rapid fire twin laser cannons, plus Staries have 60 Ions and 60 Turbos.
Third the astroid problem, firstly when that asteroid slammed into the star destoyers bridge, the star destroyers shields were down(becuase it was talking to Darth Vader on Holonet, which requires your shields to be down). Second in the scenes that showed Tie Fighters being blown up by asteroids i would like to state that first Tie Fighters have no shields, and I do remeber several times no matter what ship I'am in when my shields are down to nill and i crash into a white or remants of a ship i justt destroyed astroid, I blow up. Second those asteroids were Nickel Iron, several times in other books they went thrue astroid fields that were not Nickel Iron and just sailed thrue pushing those soft astroids away.
Fourthly i want to tlak about the light speed thingy, somebody said that ares ships can jump right on top of a planet, I'm pretty sure that is wrong, look how small a planet looks in ares, they probaly are a couple hundred km away, second how to capture a planet, ares transports can only travel at sublight speeds, only very few galaxy's in starwars have planets near each other for that to be even remotly possible to do in one year, third i want to tell you guys about a ship the Empire has, its called an indictor ship, it stops ships form entering or bringing out ships in light speed, much like the aud inhibater, excpet the Empire has hundreds of these things.
And lastly i want to add a piece of argument in here, Star destroyers Have 60 turbo lasers 60 ion cannons and 6 squads of fighters, 12 in each squad, and to my recolactoin, one carrier have 10 fighters, secondly no ship in aeres has as many weapons as a frigate, which has ussaully 12 turbolasers 12 lasers turrets.
(excuse my spellin and grammatical errors, me hate english)


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*insert famous line from either StarWars, Myth 2, Marathon Trilogy, Ares, StarCraft, Ultima Online, or from Ender's Quartet here*

Where does it say about the holonet? The LucasArts games STILL have shields work fine against both. If the holonet really does need to have the shields down, why would they use it in the asteroid belt instead of just radio? At that level of intelegence, the Ish could win using popguns and spare space shuttles.

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[This message has been edited by Fleet Admiral Darkk (edited 11-19-2000).]

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For one the games are totally different from the books, because they want the player to win,(an x-wing could not take out a star destroyer)

If the holonet really does need to have the shields down, why would they use it in the asteroid belt instead of just radio?

Secondly, Darth Vader, if you could not tell, is a kind of person that does not care about life, so he doesnt care if his admirals die, plus he wants to see how loyal they are, because taking your shields down in a nickel-iron astroid belt, is well suicdal, unless your flying a super stary. and yes ussaully if there not in battle they do use a differnt form of communacatoin, not a low tech radio, and holonets are only found on imperail ships, and there very expensive, there instant, and you can see a hologram of the pople you are tlaking too.

At that level of intelegence, the Ish could win using popguns and spare space shuttles.

firstly you have no proof of that, and thats what were debating and secondly, i dont think the Ishmans are very bright, in the game they do some pretty stupid things. can't think of any right now, but i'll get some soon. and for the measure of intelligence thing, if the Ishman's are so bright then why are they letteing a NORMAL HUMAN command there starfleets. and the empire has a DARK FORCE USING HUMAN as there commander, if the ishman's let that human do it again, then the empire would surly win. and i disagree with the pop guns and spare shuttlecrfats, one pop guns coudlnt do anything aside from streaking star desroyer armor, and pop-guns arent very rangable maybe i say....10 meters max if you put oh whole bunch of string on, that means you have to get 10 meters close to a stary to streak it, by that time since turbo's have range of more then ten miles you would of been hit more then a dozen times, and then we come to the shuttlcrafts, one we cant decide this because we have never seeen any so for all we know Ishman shuttlecrafts are the equivalant to 100000000000000000000 Death Stars, so please next time put more subsantaul things like, "the empire could be destoyed by fighters with replusers" though i could disprove that too.


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*insert famous line from either StarWars, Myth 2, Marathon Trilogy, Ares, StarCraft, Ultima Online, or from Ender's Quartet here*

Fine. However, the shields of Ares fighters are stronger than those of the X-Wings, because they can survive asteroid hits.

As for the holonet loyalty check, I could think of ways to check that that don't risk multi billion-credit hardware.

The thing about intelegence was mostly a joke. If the fighting in Empire Strikes Back is indicative of the quality of their skills while the Emperor and Vader are supporting them, then they must fight like kindergardeners otherwise. 3+ SDs and all their TIEs can't catch the Falcon. 2 even collide.

However, I discovered there is no frame of refrence, period. Star Wars has no consistent rules/info (games are cannon, as is The Courtship of Princess Leia, which arms the falcon with ions and turbolasers), and Ares uses different styles of shields (unified as opposed to particle/energy). No comparison is actually possible now.

This topic should be locked and the debate closed for lack of evidence. I do still win a MORAL victory.

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Nobody won, as nobody changed their minds. I figured this would happen from the start, but didn't say anything 'cause I wanted to watch and see what happened.

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"You can get much further with kind words and a loaded gun than you can with kind words alone."
- Al Capone

i totally agree, but one last thing, fighters in ares dont have more then x-wings,those "astroids" were not nickel iron, second x-wings can survive astroid ramming, jsut depends which ones.

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*insert famous line from either StarWars, Myth 2, Marathon Trilogy, Ares, StarCraft, Ultima Online, or from Ender's Quartet here*

Plus the empire has a much cooler theme song

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Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
-Alduran Outlaw Rick Blazer
StarLance