Ambrosia Software Web Board: Realism in sci-fi - Ambrosia Software Web Board

I find my philosophical mindset is well geared for technobabble.. be prepared to be defeated in any such duel!

Hopefully this will clear things up (takes out calculator and looks at intelligent sounding page)

A laser will do 90% effeciency for power input over a centimetre surface (edit - divide results by 1000 for a much more powerful but wider beam - 1 m). Suppose no heat is lost along the way (in reality this would require a totally different calculation to suppose and probably the support of Nasa's staff.)

Fusion reactor 100% effeciency 6.2E14 J/kg pure deuterium. 10,000 kilograms of deuterium / over 7 months (212 days). .0005 kilos of deuterium / second, = 3.38 E11 Joules power. (This is laser only reactor).

3 E11 joules damage total. Damage to water in excess of 7.1E10 degrees Celsius. Getting the heat resistance of diamonds would be a more valuable comparison.

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There are only 3 kinds of people; those who can count, and those who can't.

[This message has been edited by Joveia (edited 04-05-2003).]

From now on I'll use this as an online log for my ideas. If anyone has any advice I might be partition to it... however. Since I spend so much time on the internet, may as well write some of this down.

General notes

-Ships that require acceleration will have to have a strong basic structure which means they'll have a large number of hitpoints and must have *good* hull strength and armour. Space stations/immobile objects need have none of this, so they can in theory become weapons platforms.

-Missiles can be warp fired. Don't know how much applicability this will have in the game though.

-Space travel is similar to EVN. I'm guessing 1-3 for all ships.

-Acceleration and top speed will be similar to EVN. Despite the well-worn (and very accurate) argument that in space, bigger engines = better acceleration ergo carriers should be very fast accelerators, this does not hold up. Because of their huge size the structural tolerance levels placed on these ships will be tremendous. Therefore ships that are large need to have smaller acceleration to keep the thing from falling apart.

-Intertial dampening exists, as does artificial gravity for ships. This is mostly because otherwise, speeds would be limited to 2> G's for most combat, severely putting a restraint on acceleration.

Shields

-There are only a certain number of shields that CAN exist, theoritically. This based on the second law of thermodynamics which states that obviously, energy has to go somewhere. So that means that all the possible shields in the universe are based on basically somehow getting rid of that energy. This narrows it down a bit. Types of possible shielding methods:

1) Absorbtion
2) Redirection
3) Countering
4) Nullification

Absorbtion are deflector shields from Star Wars that absorb the shot, it does not counter it, it takes the energy in. Most ships in sci fi have absorption shields.

Redirecting is mirroring shields or gravitic shields (spamo's idea.) These basically move the shot or redirect the energy someplace else.

Countering shields move interception beams or missiles up, similar to a Star Wars defense system. They find the precise 'phase' of the energy, and move counterring energy. Similar to the way it is possible to blanket out noise by generating noise on the exact opposite spectrum, which is how you can general a cone of silence in real life. Or else they throw something in the way. You could use transporters to transport antimatter in the way of slugs. Workability for this is ok, and it is atleast realistic on some levels.

Nullification is like the phase cloak of Star Trek. You basically move out of this dimensional or move someplace or affect the shot so basically it cannot affect you, regardless of it's energy. I suppose you could call this the 'displacement' method, you merely move yourself/the energy to make it no longer a target. This is the most tricky to implement. It is also the most evil... Ideas for this are phasing out into 10 dimensionals, phasing into subspace, teleporting across someplace, teleporting the enemy shot into some useless asteroid. Creating a gravitic field of actual blackhole - light bending strength around you...

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There are only 3 kinds of people; those who can count, and those who can't.

3:42.

Spanish situations. Massive gold influx made prices at home skyrocket, causing great home economic misery. Spain became so wealthy it was easily more wealthy than all other European nations combined. Good exchange between spain and non-spain became strained and difficult due to incredible inflation of prices. Beaurcracy flourished and tore the economic system down a hundred years later. Caused incompetnet market tactics. Caused incompetent fiscal management. Caused them to like their old outdated system when it failed them, slowing their adaption. Completely destroyed their economy and civilisation economically when the gold RAN OUT.

-similarity in the game-

Britain - classification. Trading Empire. Hitler germany. Rampant Expansionist. Xerxes. Rampant Expansionist. Greece - Peaceful. Rome, Warlike Expansionist. Etc.

Peaceful - doesn't invade except in defense.
Warlike Expansionist - invades on threats. Looks for threats.
Trade Expansionist - invades on fiscal opportunities. Looks for fiscal opportunities.
Rampant Expansionist - no clearly defined reason why to invade. Invasion is sustained by government.

Rampant expands are the evil guys, trading empires can become stable, warlike expands can become stable (like klingon?) The peaceful ones are very good, but carry an aura of fatality...

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There are only 3 kinds of people; those who can count, and those who can't.

Interesting ideas. I like how you summarized everything. I still think you should take a second look at that well-worn idea that bigger engines = better acceleration. Bigger ships would have much more massive internal support, and with inertial dampening to keep the crew alive, that can be extended to maintain the hull. It would add a very interesting dynamic to ship combat, and make people think through their strategies a little more. Small ships become flying eggs armed with shotguns. Delicate and slow, they have to wait until a ship gets close enough to blow it away. Also, starships are surprisingly delicate.
Bah. I highly recommend that you go out and buy some of David Weber's books. I suggest that you start with "On Basilisk Station." It's actually free online at this address:
[url="http://"http://www.baen.com/library/"]http://www.baen.com/library/[/url]

Once there look up David Weber. Read any of the Honor Harrington books. Excellent military sci-fi.

Your paradigms for governmental types need a little tweaking. The problem with trying to classify something like that is that you have to either make lots of buckets, or a few massivly huge ones. Governments and cultures change over time, and in doing so can change their spot in your classifications. Britain was once a Rampant Expansionist style country, taking over large chunks of the world by force. Only after they had slowed their expansion and trade began to roll in did they move to a trading empire paradigm. Hitler had VERY clear reasons why he was invading other countries. Very few governments were ever reckless expanders, and those that were didn't last very long (i.e. Assyrians).
Also, your classifications tend to leave out the positive aspects for Warlike Expansion and Rampant expansion and the negative side-effects of Trade Empire and Peaceful.

Warlike Expansion: Brings a great deal of disunited land into the fold of one government that can oversee its growth and well-being. Much like Rome did when it tamed Europe. Those were very prosperous years under Roman rule.

Rampant Expansion: Can create the basis for a more stable government. China was a Rampant expansionist, primarily due to population pressures as well as the vast amounts of unclaimed land. Brings widely spread natural resources under one control.

Trade Empire: Exploitation of client states and lassiez-faire[sic] business policy can lead to tragic human rights violations and bring poverty, disease and oppression to those that toil underneath the business barons and government contractors. Think the pre-union work force in America in the early 1900's and during the Great Depression. Read "The Jungle" by Upton Sinclair to know what I'm talking about.

Peaceful: Pushovers that can leave their people undefended to the wolves that roam the wilderness. Like it or not, there will always be someone that is coveting your people and your resources, and it is up to you to defend them. A pacifistic ideal can only exist in a few circumstances, the most important being a very stable community of many governments together. Regardless, a country must be prepared to defend itself from threats. Reactive or proactive, it doesn't matter. As long as it is willing to defend what is rightfully theirs.

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"That was quick."
"Well you know, when you don't do it right it doesn't take as long."

Redefined in greater detail:

Peaceful. These are economies that are best characterised as isolationist. They trade, they like others (?) but they do not deliberately start a war for profit and they thus have massive accountability and _must_ have a democracy or constitional monarchy. They have a strong sense of patriotism.

Something else which I failed to mention is that these perfect utopis are rare. Governments will usually get more and more trade expansionist the larger they get. For one reason - how do you hold together a bunch of planets that may for all you know, dislike each other. I forsee Peaceful empires as being small groups of 3-4 planets settled by a particular ethnic group, like the British could settle 3-4 islands and then those islands would willingly be part of Britain. To not have a trade empire they would have to willingly be part of it... you can see how amazingly rare it is for these to happen.

And it becomes even more difficult once you realise that injuries would be dealt and received over the course of galactic history. So it could end up like the nations on earth, being asked to join together...

Trade: Trading empires result on massive abuse of human rights. They are corporate governments. The cheaper it is maintain someone for making profit the better. If profits are threatened, massive fleets entail. This could become quite awful... quite awful indeed.

On the plus side, they will likely favour democratic institutions because of the effeciency bonus. Atleast at home. on the colony worlds they will have second class citizens and likely slavery. Also they would rule with client states. they would extort money... it is possible to make a fleet into one huge profit making machine I guess. You could threaten to blow up a planet unless you get 50% of it's GNP. And other such charming things... I suspect Trade empires would vary wildly. The only thing we know for sure is that they'll be coming from a democratic institution so they'll probably be democratic on the outside. It depends how it turns out. I'm sure we'll have plenty of villain empires that are just as bad, if not worse - than warlike ones.

I should note that the slaughter of above 6 million people in India during a famine which the British could *easily* have averted went practically unopposed by it's democratic institutions... the same institutions which abolished slavery about a hundred years ago... Can you imagine anything like that happening today?

There was the famine in Ireland... above 1 million people... on their doorstep!

But in Britain people enjoyed rights greatly. I think these governments will be Republics. Also note - although they do not need effeciency as much as el peaceful they will still like it.

In this empire, large navies will come with it. Because of all your territorial acquisitions which you have to defend and stuff. You will be gathering tribute not only from client states, but from states you are terrorising. Or colonising you are forcing to stripmine.

But remember, it is not economical to wage a war on a colony that doesn't actually threaten your navy. So I predict the Trade Empire may actually end up with a 'heart' in a very real sense. They would have their fair share of planets, but they wouldn't feel the need to go out of their way to conquer one if they could simply make it a colonial acquisition. I imagine the root of Trade empire in space would be a home planet, that star system, and then several star systems around it which they've intimidated. These star systems would eventually be joined and integrated as nations, with the occasional rebellion and have sympathetic governments installed. Their main production would be on those planets.

Outwards they'd find other colonies where you'd land some troops and make it an outpost. So it would progress continually and continue to seperate - since trade empires know that they want their military to be centralised because it's the cost effective thing to do. Eventually things would get more and more massive. The outposts will become internal worlds, internal worlds will become core worlds. Democracy might even have a chance (or atleast a republic.) Once the internal worlds get accepted by centuries of association they will need representation and that is what they'll get.

Then you'll reach a point where you have a federation. States that are colonised at the outskirts go through an initial process of barbarity, become familiar and then get integrated by force. I'm still thinking... this theory doesn't quite hold up. India never became integrated into Britain. Scotland maintained degrees of seperation despite being next to Britain.

I suppose it's feasible you could get your internal circle of same ethnic planets. These would form your interior parliament. The centre parliament would experience ruptures depending on how close they really were. Then there'd be lines of tyranny extending outwards. You could have something like a hundred star systems under your control, massive fleets, robotic armies, and all of it coordinated from this tiny star system. It's cost effective!

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There are only 3 kinds of people; those who can count, and those who can't.

Well, you forgot crusading expansionism - imposing a belief system of yours on others at any cost. These aren't often successful, but sometimes can be. May have ulterior motives but are not required to. I'm not clear on the exact events of the Muslim expansion into Africa and Spain, but that might have been this. The US also did similar things, acting to promote anti-comunism in areas with little strategic significance.

Also, why famines occur is a rather complicated process caused by market forces. Similar famines occured during WW2 when the British were shipping food to bases. There was still plenty of food left for the people, but price panic set in and nobody could buy it.

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"In literature as in love we are astounded by what is chosen by others." Andre Maurois
Onii7/Frinkruds and his funky forums
macgamer.net

[This message has been edited by Fleet Admiral Darkk (edited 04-08-2003).]

The reason was I believe that giving Indian's food would artificially lower the price of the market cost for grain. Not power, or not wealth... they're weren't greedy, they didn't want to interfere with sacrosanct market laws. (any parallels between the 1970 recession and our blind following of Maynard Kayne and strong government intereference in the economy is welcome.)

Just something else. There is actually, once you read the full body of my insano-text, alot of stuff that doesn't add up. Principly, my empire has no soul. What are it's objectives? Power? That's highly unrealistic. It's not like a real human empire. There has to be many more forces in the mix.

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There are only 3 kinds of people; those who can count, and those who can't.

Empires generally have a unified vision that involves conquering a bunch of stuff.

Nazi germany had a vision of a world of just Aryans, with "perfect genes".
Rome had a vision of a Catholic world.
Spain had a vision of the wealth of the world being poured into Spain.

Avaracial empires are not at all like the ones in 1984 - Orwell fails to understand that those with power wish to benifit from it. Most people wish for power for the purpose of using it or abusing it. Those people drive the empire towards more power.

Some sci-fi empires:

Abh - want to control everything because they honestly believe humans would benefit from their control.

Verden - wants to unify mankind via eugenic means.

Paul Atreides - wants to prevent Jihad, gain power for his own use.

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"In literature as in love we are astounded by what is chosen by others." Andre Maurois
Onii7/Frinkruds and his funky forums
macgamer.net

I understand the vision of the Abh one.

Abh: A desire to provide good government. This desire is rooted in fear of bad governments? A desire for effeciency on a galactic scale? To make humans evolve in a perfectly controlled environment? Fear of another species being ungoverned by a good government? Contempt for the human's ineffeciency? Altruism with a very arrogant posture? I like the Abh sound of things. Because it's so much better to have an empire which does evil trying to be good, rather than have a black and white good/evil stereotype. All of my civs will attempt to do good, for some, however, it turns out horribly.

Verden (A human empire?): Eugenics seems to be a nazi idea. So the Verden are afraid of imperfections? They judge things physically or mentally? I suppose this really could be spliced with nazism.

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There are only 3 kinds of people; those who can count, and those who can't.

[This message has been edited by Joveia (edited 04-09-2003).]

I'll suggest one.

Empire: peaceful, can morph into warlike

The Nathrezim are based off a martian colony of Deimos. They are genetically engineered for the gravity of deimos moon. So they are weaker. But they have tremendous control over their mental faculties (a rating on the PSI scale of 1.22... which is tremendous.) They have short range telepathy (a few feet) which gives an overall feel of another mind. Masters can achieve a PSI scale if they're Nath-born of a maximum of 2.55, which allows very short range mind control.

These masters are kept on board fighting ships and are an integral part of the nath peaceful empire.

More later..

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There are only 3 kinds of people; those who can count, and those who can't.

The Abh, if I recall, consider themselves most fit to govern and believe that bad things will result from humanity being governed by the "unfit" and therefor conquer stuff. So yeah, arrogant altruism. Really damn arrogant.

Verden Empire (which is a human empire) is mostly about ending cultural strife by obliterating the idea of culture/race through forced interbreeding.

The Abh are from Crest of the Stars, and Verden's Empire is my own creation.

Oh, and many empires believe they are doing the right thing - Nazis, British, Spanish, Imperial China, etc. Not all, however, do: Stalinist Russia (not sure here), various South American Dictators (who originated invading people for their oil as a primary reason for war), etc.

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"In literature as in love we are astounded by what is chosen by others." Andre Maurois
Onii7/Frinkruds and his funky forums
macgamer.net

[This message has been edited by Fleet Admiral Darkk (edited 04-09-2003).]

Abh principles are usually applied in countries where more advanced technology conquers more primitive technology... read history. It's not arrogant, it's human nature. And if the Abh has more advanced tech, then I would consider it their fiefdom (humanity).

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There are only 3 kinds of people; those who can count, and those who can't.

Psychological profile

I'll be constructing a psychological profile of each star empire. This profile will most probably be useless.. But it does make an easy checking system if and when I choose to implement stuff.

Money loving factor: 1-10.
Greed: How much greed there is in society
Spiritually: Emphasis on religion. Communist states would have 0, while fundies would get 8 (actually, humanity hasn't yet reached a totalitarian pinnacle of emphasis on religion, in my opinion. We're talking about an all-persavisive religion down to the last thought of everyone. I guess mind control would fit...)
Effeciency: how effecient. Democracies and technocracies will rate very high, dictatorships will most likely be lower, and old-style Communism would be very low. I think there is a lower system... not sure. No point in us discovering it, right?
Emphasis on Life: The value of human life. In Christianity there is a high emphasis on life, in communism there is a low emphasis. I think it will help effeciency the lower the emphasis is, ref: when Stalin was constantly purging the communist party the state was very effecient, when the purges stopped, the system began to clot up. A rather bloody... but effective way of reducing beauracracy.
Telepathy: If the race has telepathy, if it can consciously control it, if it can dominate people. I predict there would be some variants of humans who could do the 3rd option.
Power: raw power love. Higher emphasis on power might indicate the presence of an aristocracy or class system, lower loves would approach communist formlessness. Also lower values would probably entail less warlike cultures.
Love of knowledge: Every nationality will have a love of particular knowledge. For example, they're interested primarily in military technologies in the united states. It is possible theorise a race that would not be...

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There are only 3 kinds of people; those who can count, and those who can't.

Let's try that system on my Hialee.

Money loving factor: 1. Hialee have an a perfectly communist internal economy.
Greed (isn't this redundant?): 1. Hialee have a highly disciplined society, and have little beyond what they need and a few decorations/amusements.
Spirituality: 4. Hialee have no real religious beliefs, but they do believe people have immortal souls.
Efficiency: 4. Hialee are a tad whimsical, but their efficiency can shoot up when in great need.
Emphasis on life: 5. Hialee believe in the value of the individual life, but they believe there are things worth more.
Telepathy: 2. Very good intra-group communication, but little more.
Power love: 3. The Hialee dislike having to rule over others. They will, however seek to impose their will from time to time.
Love of knowledge: 10. Hialee are very hungry for information, and they all share it very freely. All their dealings with information are based on transparency - including forcing it on others through hacking.

There are quite a lot of things this leaves out, but it does give a rather fair picture of them.

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"In literature as in love we are astounded by what is chosen by others." Andre Maurois
Onii7/Frinkruds and his funky forums
macgamer.net

[This message has been edited by Fleet Admiral Darkk (edited 04-12-2003).]

Money loving is very redundant IMHO.

This still isn't enough. I think I will think of things in an RPG way, and see what I come up with. It helps to think of a real life example, for example, my spanish one.

Thinking...

The Mekron are a society with deep internal fractures. They are a mechanistic society where everything has to be run by machines, and organic components can be reduced to a single brain inside a hub. The machines are very powerful and multi-taskful, but there are problems. There is an enormous strain on the economy to update and keep the machines fixed, because Mekron break down alot. This eventually has begun to overwhelm the economy, so that only very high important mekron receive aid in the form of fixing their machinery. Lower ranking mekron have to proof their worth to society. So it is a pyramid where the Mekron have automatically created themselves. The lower ranking mekron eventually break down and a horrible system has evolved where the upper crust have created an entire area of the planet for themselves and it gradually gets worse as you move into the planets basement.

Externally, the Mekron have a decaying fleet also but it is amazingly large and well-engineered (it's weapons are ordinary.) They are based around their homeworld and have large numbers of colonies in 'spirals'.

*mekron is obviously taken from MOO. This isn't a really seriuos piece, just soemthign tom ention.

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There are only 3 kinds of people; those who can count, and those who can't.